NPR Debate with Hillary Clinton, Bill Richardson, Barack Obama, John Edwards, Joe Biden, Dennis Kucinich

Hillary Clinton will debate the other Democratic candidates today on NPR.  The NPR Debate at 2:00 (EST) can be heard on local NPR radio stations and on the internet HERE.

NPR sets up the debate today:

Tuesday’s debate will give all of the Democrats a chance to sway those Iowa voters during an in-depth discussion. NPR hosts Steve Inskeep, Michele Norris, and Robert Siegel will moderate the debate, which will follow the same format introduced by NPR in 2004. There is no studio audience nor video cameras. Candidates will be able to engage one another in three areas of discussion, and field questions sent in by NPR listeners.

A new AP survey finds that health care and Iraq are dominant concerns among Democrats in Iowa and the other early voting states of New Hampshire and South Carolina. After losing her narrow lead to Obama in Iowa polls, Clinton has been criticizing the Illinois senator’s health care plan, which she says would leave millions of Americans uncovered.

Clinton still holds a lead in national polls, so rivals see Iowa as the best opportunity to slow her momentum. Obama could get a boost later in the week when he campaigns alongside celebrity endorser Oprah Winfrey. He’s also outspending Clinton on Iowa TV ads.


The topics are restricted.  Iran and lessons of Iraq; relations with China and how they affect us at home; immigrationNo health care.  Bill Richardson won’t be on.  Gravel is on. 

NPR: On Iran Bush says nothing has changed with new intelligence estimate. 

Hillary: I’m relieved the NIE has reached their conclusion, not happy with Bush.  Bush should engage in serious diplomacy. 

Gravel: Iran was never a problem.  The intelligence community has drop-kicked the president. 

Obama: Iran continues to be a threat.  They still fund HAMAS and Hezbollah.  Bush does not let facts get in the way of ideology.  They need to move on diplomacy. 

Dodd: These are 16 agencies so it is very compelling. 

Biden: Pressure did not bring this about.  This happened in 2003.  Bush has undermined us.  Oil is up to $93 a barrell.  This is like watching a rerun of Iraq.  Who is going to trust us?

Edwards: Bush was just talking about world war 3 along with the neo-cons.  The U.S. Senate has a responsibility to stop him.  This is similar to what we saw in Iraq.

Kucinich: Five years ago I warned against war in Iraq.  In the past few years I have been saying Iran has no nuclear weapons program.  Some of my colleagues here to vote with him. 

NPR: Clinton, you voted to call the Iran Revolutionary Guard terrorists, is this still true?

Hillary: There were other purposes for the resolution.  Since that resolution we have seen our commanders in Iraq say Iran is stopping.

NPR: Is Iran a proliferator?

Hillary: There was a broadly based belief of that. Edwards said so in Israel, Obama has said so in an interview. 

Edwards: We have a disagreement. 

NPR: Did you say in Israel that Iran was a proliferator?

Edwards: Bush and Cheney said that.

Obama: Senator Clinton is being disengenous.  I was asked was “if” Iran  was a proliferator what I would do. 


Kucinich: The points Clinton made is a valid point.  Edwards and Obama did make those statements.  I was the only one who repeatedly challenged the notion.

Dodd: The vote in September was important (Kyl-Lieberman).  A non-binding resolution. 

Clinton: I voted for it along with strong opponents of the Iraq war.  We would not have voted for it if it led to an attack on Iran.  The designation of IRG as a terrorist organization helps diplomacy. 

TAPE of Lieberman: If there are no sanctions we need to attack bases in Iran.

Edwards: That’s supposed to be diplomacy.  Clinton says she agrees with Bush there is a War On Terror. 

Clinton: I understand making outlandish charges.  This goes too far.  After the resolution we have seen changes.  The Iranians were supplying weapons to Iraq.  We have seen evidence of them pulling back.

Gravel: There is no evidence, there is no problem with supporting HAMAS and Hezbollah. 

Biden: I’m the only one laying out concrete proposals.  The vote declaring them as terrorist organizations was not without dispute.  After that vote oil prices went up.  They are not connecting the dots.  There is no evidence that this has changed things.

Obama: There is also the suggestion that this should mean changes to our forces in Iraq.  We elected a government in Iraq that we knew had relations with Iran. 

Edwards: There is a real difference.  Only one Democrat here voted for the resolution.  We need sticks and carrots.

Clinton: Ahmadinijad does not control the IRG.  We need to engage in diplomacy.  Economic sanctions would help the diplomacy on this.  Biden and I disagree on this.  But none of us is advocating a rush to war.  I spoke back in February against war with Iran.

NPR: A contributor to Biden and Edwards, has a question about why we are disliked so much in the Muslim world.

Biden: It’s not about a rush to war its about no war.  Many conclude this is a war on Islam. 

NPR: When policy makers do things like support for Israel, how do you answer the question that we are not being even handed. 

Edwards: We know a lot about what is going on in Iran.  We have a responsibility to humanity and education.

Obama: Listen to the Republican debates.  Giuliani says they are coming here to kill you, you get the impression Muslims are not our friends.  I was called naive and irresponsible by saying we need to talk with Iran.

Dodd: This is longstanding.  We need arabic speakers.  That has bred a lack of understanding.  Where has this administration been on engagement?


Kucinich: We need to reach out to the Muslim world.  This also hurts Israel because their security is threatened. 

NPR: When future historians write about you what will be your doctrine?

Hillary: A doctrine that shows the U.S. is not afraid of cooperating.

Edwards: Long term, visionary. 

Biden: Clarity, prevention not preemption. 

Obama: Not doctrinaire.  A common security.   


China, as economic power and what it means, strategic challenges.

NPR: Given China’s size, who has more leverage, China or the US?

Edwards: America has been obsessed with terrorism and China.  We’ve done nothing on China.  America has leverage on China.  But we need to engage.  Lead filled toys and deficits – America must engage.

Obama: We must get our fiscal house in order.  We are funding a war we can’t afford.  In Africa the presence of China is only exceeded by the absence of America.  We also need to be tougher negotiators. 

NPR: who has leverage?

Obama: It’s us now but what about 50 years from now, we need to look at the trends.

Kucinich: I was the only one here to vote against China trade.  We are borrowing money from China to pay for Iraq. 

Hillary: We have more leverage but we are not using it.  We have bad fiscal policies.  We need a strategic plan for relations with China.  We need a coherent approach to China or China will get more leverage.

NPR: listener: Put on a tarriff.

NPR: would you restrict trade? tarriffs?

Biden: We are building them up too much.  800 million people in poverty.  We refuse to enforce the laws that exist.  Under WTO we can do this.  We don’t need a tarriff war.  Enforce the law.

Dodd: This is not a competition.  We are not playing by the same rules.  They manipulate their currency and use slave labor.  We have the authority to suspend importation.

NPR: what would you do to level the playing field?

Obama: We have laws on the books now.  Things have shifted.  Stop the toys from coming in.  Japan blocks bad China products.  We have a set of tools that we are not using.  US companies in China are the ones sending this stuff in. 

Edwards: Big corporate America is driving the policy.

NPR: what would you do to stand up to the manufacturers.

Edwards: Enforce the law.  Corporate America drives what is going on in Washington.  The president should say “buy local”. 

NPR: Will you buy toys made in China?

Edwards: No.

Dodd: My toys will come from Iowa.

Obama: The problem is we are not using the power we have.  Wall Street is setting the policy.  We have to have a president that gives a voice to American workers.

Gravel: China only has 10% of the spending on defense we do.  Our interests always come first.  We need to think of humanity. What about our manipulations.

NPR: On the tradeoffs, do we go from $300 TVs to $600 TVs?

Kucinich: Buy America.  Edwards voted for China trade. 


Obama: I believe China will modify its behavior.  Americans are willing to pay more. 

NPR listener: concerned about toxic ingredients

NPR: Very few Chinese recalls.  Can we overreact?

Clinton: I sympathize.  We have turned our backs on the information available.  We need tougher standards.  They should be applied strongly to imports.  This administration has defanged the agencies. 

NPR: Dodd, any vote you would reconsider?

Dodd: I wish the Senate would reconsider some of the legislation I recommended. 


[apologies – computer threw out the last section.]

NPR: China is given a free pass on human rights.  What should we try and how do we verify changes in human rights. 

Biden: We could do this at the United Nations.  We have capitulation, not competition.  We need to call them on the carpet.  This is the one way to get China to reform.

Clinton: I agree with Joe.  12 years ago the Chinese did not want me to speak but I did.  We need to call them out on their misbehavior.  We have no smart enforcement nor engagement – the worst of both worlds.

NPR: Did you advise your husband on foreign policy?

Clinton: Yes.  I spoke with all the departments.  I was deeply involved.  I want the best possible advice including my husband. 

Dodd: We welcomed the Dalai Lama and that sent a signal.  China is raising huge resources.  We need to work with them.  The Dalai Lama is a leader and should be recognized.

Edwards: We have enormous leverage with the Chinese.  These things have been happening before Bush.  For a decade and a half we have been catering to business interests. 

NPR: Didn’t you say we don’t have leverage?

Edwards: No, we do have leverage. 

NPR: Edwards, you imply the US can reemerge as a textile power again?

Edwards: My father worked in a mill.  That mill is gone.  The reason is America catering to corporate profits.  There are other things we need to do.  We need an education work force. 

NPR: Obama, you said if China is manipulating their currency we need to take them to the mat.  What do you mean?

Obama:  They are manipulating their currency.  I would rather not do this with legislation.  I am interested Gravel to see Chinese clothed and educated, we do this through raising labor standards.

Biden: We would do this with France, England?  We would be tough.  To deal with the currency we should do what we did in the Plaza Accords.  I would call for a similar conference.

NPR: Clinton you said China reacts if pressed.  Would you have more confrontation less cooperation?

Clinton: No.  Example: a company in NY was threatened with tarriffs if they did not team up with a Chinese company.  I helped them and the Chinese backed off.


NPR: Should Americans turn in “illegal immigrants”?

Obama: We do not deputize American citizens.  The federal government should do its job.

NPR: So Americans should not turn in illegal immigrants?

Obama: We do not deputize American citizens.  Hold business accountable.  We can’t imprison priests who help them.

NPR: What should Americans do?

Dodd: People need to be held accountable.  We need to control our borders. 

Kucinich: Rely on the Constitution.  Rely on law enforcement.  These are economic refugees from NAFTA. 

NPR tape: listener who does not require Social Security numbers.

Clinton: I agree with what has been said.  It is the failure of the federal government that puts citizens into difficult situations.  The government must fulfill it obligations. 

NPR: But don’t Americans turn in criminals?

Clinton: It’s a very clever question but not on target.  We depend on these people to take care of our families and communities.  We need a change in our immigration laws.

Biden: I agree with Hillary.  There are 8 million children.  There is a difference in providing a service and employment to make your business grow.  When my wife died, I went through that.  Most of the illegals I interviewed were Irish.  Most of the illegals, 60% are not Spanish speaking.

NRP: According to Pew, aren’t the majority Mexicans, Latin Americans?

Dodd: Both of your might be right. 

Biden: Employers should give an opportunity to Americans who want to do those jobs.

NPR: If immigrants are being paid less, how can they not be driving down wages, as you have said?

Edwards: There are studies.  My birth town is now about 50% hispanic.  I’ve been told about the abuses illegal immigrants suffer. 

NPR: How are they not driving down wages?

Edwards: The loss of good middle class jobs.  What do we do to strengthen the middle class. 

NPR: On Saturday, you noted these workers are punished but that you as president would give them rights, what do you mean?

Edwards: Comprehensive immigration reform.

NPR: but until then what additional rights?

Edwards: We can’t continue to have ….

NPR: one more time…

Edwards: Use the regulatory agencies to make sure they are being paid overtime. 

Obama: This requires leadership.  They probably are sometimes driving down wages.  Hold employers accountable.  Make a pathway to legalization.

NPR: Would you give them rights to work in 2009?

Obama: No, the principles of comprehensive immigration reform.  Give them a path to legalization.

Kucinich: NAFTA helped drive wages down.  A Kucinich administration would give full constitutional rights to everyone in this country.  Impeachment.

Gravel: There is a reason why this problem has not been resolved.  These people fill these jobs. 


NPR: are you contradicting your self when you say punish employers but not punish immigrants?

Clinton: No.  Part of the problem is a faltering economy. 

NPR: The easy thing is to crack down, even if it harms people.

Clinton: I will crack down.  But we do need comprehensive immigration reform.  Deportation and rounding up is not viable.  It would take a convoy of buses. 

Obama: I will initiate the process immediately but it will take time. 

Dodd: This was a failure of leadership by this administration.  There are many people trying to come here through legal means.  The conservatives want to use this as a wedge issue. 

NPR: Edwards, H1B visas, different opinions – would you expand H1B visas or not?

Edwards: Educate American workers so we don’t need to import workers. 

NPR: have you made a decision on this issue?

Edwards: the underlying issue is are we making it easier to go to college, to get the right education.

Biden: We have it about right now.  But we are not enforcing the laws.  Sometimes humanitarian needs trump an existing law relating to immigration. 

NPR: listener concern on spanish option on phone calls, would you stop this?

Obama: No.

Clinton: There are many languages spoken in this country but English is the unifying language. 

Kucinich: I defeated an English only proposal in Ohio. 


NPR: Will American culture change?

All: Yes. It always has been that way. 

Dodd: It’s a great source of strength for our country.

Obama: Children of Spanish speakers learn English. 

NPR: listener question: What is the toughest question you still have to decide on?

Clinton: There are a lot of things.  We have so much repair work to do around the world, from Iran to China.

NPR: one specific thing.

Obama: Climate change, the science seems to indicate it is accelerating.

Dodd: Education.  The importance of priority of this issue.

Biden: How you rationalize competition and trade policies.

Edwards: Who to consider for Vice President.

NPR: a serious point.

Edwards: how to stop corporate power.

Kucinich: Should the President and Vice President be held liable. 

NPR: Clinton, name one?

Clinton: you try to anticipate issues.  Like the economy, how do we stimulate our way from a possible downturn. 



381 thoughts on “NPR Debate with Hillary Clinton, Bill Richardson, Barack Obama, John Edwards, Joe Biden, Dennis Kucinich

  1. Iran/NIE: Bush said nothing’s changed as to danger Iran poses; agree Iran is threat?

    C: disagrees with Bush that nothing has changed; advocates diplomacy with carrots and sticks; no resolution w/o diplomacy

    G: Iran not problem now or ever; no info to warrant action

    O: Iran threat to neighbors in region; clear admin to not let facts get in way of his ideology; should have stopped saber-rattling; need to move on diplomatic front; let Iran join WTO

    D: compelling 16 agency report; pursue diplomatic solution; sanctions; can’t do unilaterally, need international support; compromised to US presence in Iraq

    B: program stopped 2003; Bush not trustworthy; undermined credibility in world; caused oil to go up $25 barrel with security premium; must stop; rerun of Iraq statements; Iran not nuclear threat; should be dealt with directly; who is going to trust US?

    E: Bush talking about WW3; neocons; contingency plans; been going on since Axis of Evil speech; Congress should have acted; eerily similar to Iraq

    K: warned 5 years ago no evidence; warned US not to do it; no evidence Iran has nukes; Bush convinced Bush, Obama, Edwards, to say Iraq/Iran has WMD

    C: Iranian guards; other purposes for resolution; does label terrorist org; Hamas, Hez, have been supplying weapons and supplies to Iraq; nonbinding resolution did not require action; cmdrs on ground in Iraq say Iranians have backed off; refers to what Edwards and Obama said before (broadly-based belief on Iran having/supplying weapons)

    E: remarks in Israel; Iran a serious issue

    O: re 2004 Chi artcle; hypothetical keep options on table; saber-rattling repeat of Iraq; can’t keep giving benefit of the doubt

  2. K: C point valid re Obama and Edwards’ comments; encouraged Bush rhetoric; K repeatedly challenged legislation/all options on table and Iran had WMD

    D: Kyl-Lieb vote important; felt eliminated any option but military one; danger; leadership issue

    C: vote for it; Dems worked to clarify meaning; Iranian rev guard fits into broader diplomatic effort; carrots and sticks (designation)

    Lieb said: Iran has crossed red line; respon for killing US soldiers; show them evidence; eco sanctions; consider military action by striking bases around Teheran

    E: diplomacy (desig terrorist org?); context that she agrees with Bush terminology “war on terror” .. conclusion we are at war

    C: goes way too far; desig = changes in behavior; no basis for rush to war (opposed 2 years); were supplying weapons and assistance; seeing positive effect of labeling them

    G: military has no evidence; address accusation of giving support (Hamas, Hezbollah) .. why can’t they support? .. fighting for their right

    B: chairman foreign relations comm.; vote to desig couldn’t be est’d w/o reservation; oil prices jumped after declaration; others distanced themselves from US; no evidence declaration caused any Iranian change

    O: other problem, should structure US forces in Iraq based on Iran; Iran strengthened by Iraq war; justification for continuing op in Iraq

    E: only 1 candidate voted for res (C); have capacity to work with Euro banking system to influence Iran; we need to provide path with friends in Eur w/sticks and carrots

    C: clerical leadership controls Iranian guard (not Iran govt controlled); enmeshment with eco activity of Iran; diplo efforts; none are advocating rush to war; first to speak against Iran war in Feb 07 on Senate floor

  3. Q: speculate on hatred of US

    B: advocating no war, not just no rush to war, no justification; military off the table; hated so much, trusted so little; talking about world’s Muslims who conclude this is a war on Islam

    E: strong support of Israel upsets Muslims, too; bullying selfish behavior of Bush admin driving; we know what’s happening inside Iran, we know that there’s little polit support for Iranian leader; need to make edu available

    O: John’s point right; listen to Repug debates; Muslims overseas – Giuliani “they’re coming to kill you”; not interested in talking/resolving; close Guantanamo; talk to friends and enemies; called naive; will change moderate forces inside Iran that we’re willing to listen

    D: longstanding after 9/11; vaccuum with Arab nations; bred lack of understanding; where has admin been? Both Dem/Repug re Israel – walked away from Israel/Muslim world

    K: last word – reach out to Muslim nations; US taking different direction towards peace; war drove wedge; danger to Israel; need to protect security of Israel and Palestinian state

    Q – Am diplo hist – foreign policy – what will be your doctrine?

    C: doctrine of restoring US leadership and moral authority, US not afraid to cooperate to build stronger US and world more reflective of our values

    E: not ad hoc foreign policy; long-term view to strengthen US role through actions and language; lead but work with others, edu, health, etc.

    B: clarity; prevention not preemption or regime change; repudiation of Bush doctrine; prevent crisis (Pakistan, China, Afghanistan, Darfur) requires engagement; does not rule out use of force

    O: not doctrinaire, world complicated; ideology over-ridedden; view security as common security and prosperity (GLOBALIST); literacy; pollution

  4. Obama calls in Iowa and NH

    The Clinton campaign gave me numbers for a handful of women who they said would confirm Patti Solis Doyle’s claim of Obama “dirty tricks.” I reached three, one of whom had received an aggressive-sounding poll testing a set of anti-Hillary messages; she couldn’t recall the name of the company polling.

    I also spoke to two women, one in Iowa, one in New Hampshire, who had similar reports of somewhat belligerent personal calls from Obama volunteers. They’re not what you typically think of as “dirty tricks,” though that’s hardly a phrase with a formal definition. But giving the name of your campaign, and then being obnoxious and angering people, is at least not a very effective trick.

    Debra Ervin, a nurse in Mediapolis, IA said she’d gotten a call from an Obama volunteer named Seth a few weeks ago. When she said she supports Clinton because of her experience, he responded that Clinton’s experience hadn’t helped in her Iraq vote, and the conversation went on in that vein for half an hour.

    “Every little thing, he just kept arguing and arguing with me,” she said. “I told him this was bullying.”

    She said the caller eventually apologized.

    Barbara Therriault, who owns a Plymouth, NH hair salon said she had a similar experience about a week ago; she didn’t remember the name of the caller, who she recalled saying he came from the Edwards campaign.

    She recalled the caller arguing with her about healthcare and then, when she cited her support for Hillary as a woman, he raised an oddly specific point:
    “He cited another incident where she was not helpful in South Dakota when they passed [anti-abortion] legislation. [He said Clinton] refused to help and obama had gone to their aid,” she recalled.

    “It got fiesty,” Therriault said. “I hung up on him. I realized it wasn’t a normal conversation.”

    The Obama campaign’s statement didn’t get the details of what volunteers are saying, or whether they’ve got scripts rebutting pro-Hillary points or not; it denied dirty tricks more broadly. This doesn’t seem outside the bounds of that denial — acting like a jerk, then apologizing, isn’t very good politics, but it’s hard to see how that’s a trick of any kind.

  5. Q: changing China and affects in US; strategic challenges, natural resources

    Given China’s size, military build-up, trade deficit

    E: last 7 years, Bush – 2 serious challenges = terrorism and rise of China; trade; poison; opaque military build up; obsessed with internal development; damage environment; serious eco leverage; they’re growing, strong; US strong; need to engage on these issues, which we have not been doing

    O: 3 issues: own fiscal house in order (US deficits, funding war, credit card with Chinese); presence of China and absence of US in Africa; tougher negotiators with China (competitors); issues of importation; US dominant superpower but having to be thinking about 10-20 years for now; engage in world

    K: voted against China trade; solid trade policies; needs peace doctrine; borrowing from China to finance war in Iraq; Wall Street weakened; stop arms race/global treaty; strength for peace; voting record

    C: need us more than we need them – we have more leverage but we’re not using it; irresponsible fiscal policy of Bush; incoherent eco policy; need to take steps to show we’re in charge of our eco/diplo policy

    Q – made in China – can’t have it both ways; bite bullet on balance of trade; put on tariff and prevent citizens from purchasing cheap goods

    B: restrict trade? – WTO guidelines could stop imports now; we have more leverage; we’re making them 10-feet tall; they have 8 million people in poverty; we refuse to enforce laws in place; inspectors to guarantee; don’t need tariff war; enforce the law

    D: not playing by same rules; adversarial relationship; manip currency to tune of 40%; employs slave labor; deny access to US goods; need to understand relationship; play like adult to be in marketplace; could have suspended imports w/toxic goods

    O: level playing field? – B & D made good point; laws not enforced; relationship has shifted (B right); would toys, food cannot come in/inspectors on ground; labor and environmental agreements in place; tools need to be available to US; US companies manufacturing in China and shipping here

    E: expand on B: bid corporate America driving US policy on China; need to enforce country of origin laws; WTO; corporate America drives what happens in US; buy local – good for US economy, farmers; no Chinese toys under Christmas tree this year

    D: buying Iowa toys

    O: problem is not using power we have; laws being made with Wall Street and special interests in mind; cheap labor, lower environmental standards; voice to American workers, but wants Chinese workers to also benefit

    G: 10% of defense money comes from China; continued rhetoric of beggar thy neighbor

    Q – $300 vs $600 tvs – pay more for consumer goods?

    K: buy American; build American industry; all voted for China trade except K; not get in arms race with China; got to get own house in order; stop Wall Street

    O: higher prices? – China will modify behavior; US is biggest market, can’t afford to say “see ya later”; have to enforce agreements; higher costs on front end? probably

    Q – concerned about toxic chemicals in toys/products; limit use of agents; toxic ingredients not listed; Euro Union has stricter standards

    C: (could we overreact?) – we don’t do near enough re toxic products; turned back on available info; need toughter standards; should be especially applied to imports/exercise recalls; admin defanged Consumer Safety Product

    D: (vote you’d look back at) – lead paint; 80% of food imported, 1% inspected


  6. The questions are more oriented on issues than other debates. There is no ‘hit job’ like questions from the moderator. More issue oriented although Edwards and Obama are trying to take cheap shots with it.

  7. NPR is letting everyone talk as much as they want (except Gravel thankfully) but giving Hillary very little time.

  8. The issues chosen are not the most important issues. No health care, no social security, no home foreclosures, economic problems. Iran, China and immigration are important but hardly the biggest issue. Immigration is a big issue in this election but has had plenty of time in other debates.

  9. But did you here the news coverage. Her disagreement w/Bush on Iran was the soundbite they went with. She sounded great.

  10. Although Hillary hasn’t been given much talking time, I don’t think it’s a bad idea to let Obama and Edwards just talk. It is not only clear that they have little substance or originality to their ideas, but they also manage to contradict prior statements they have made. The facthub already has a couple of pieces on both Obama’s and Edward’s malleable Iran positions.

  11. That is true admin. They have two questions on foreign policy and one on illegal immigration. There is nothing on domestic issues.

  12. Second hour:

    Republicans asked for separate forum but not set yet.

    Return to China: delicate balancing act; human rights record, but secured trade w/China having free pass.

    B: human rights commitment from China? – 2008 Olympics – playing by the rules; hold China accountable at UN, won’t designate China violator of human rights; need to be called on carpet at UN; who else would we not call on the carpet? one way to get China to reform; can’t close eyes, can’t pretend

    C: commitment? agrees with B; China didn’t want her to come; blocked speech out, stood up for women’s rights (abused); need to call them on it/misbehavior, eco activities, etc.; we’ve worst of both worlds, no enforcement, irratic incoherent policy; change behavior; did you advise Bill on foreign policy? would he advise you – yes, met with Bill, advisors before, during, after, Defense Dept, CIA, etc., wants best possible advice, which would include Bill

    D: symbol of/recognized Dalai Lama; work with China on policies; this won’t change; balance

    E: use WTO for leverage; not just under Bush but decade and a half; mill jobs gone (Newton, Iowa); American trade policy catered to corporate America; we have more leverage than they do (eco, diplo) – WTO again; hold China accountable; dangerous import products; textile production? – should our eco be specializing in product produced around the world now? – yes; need trade policy that works; US most creative, most innovative

    O: currency manip – take China to the mat – if manip (no dispute) need to take strong action in Banking Committee; problem = blunt tool, doesn’t favor legislatively; will meet with Chinese leadership; talk to Euro Union re trade imbalances; issues not contradictory; long-term interests of China should not expand on backs on low-paid workers; how can we improve work/safety/consumer protections?

    B: why so tough on China? would we do this to other countries? be fair. Currency – 1988 – brought in all major currencies in world to rationalize the currencies. Call conference to rationalize the currencies.

    C: said China will react when/if pressed – operate from position of strength; example from NY – tariffs make uncompetitive so went into business with Chinese, so HRC helped to stand up to it.

  13. John “cheap shot expert” Edwards is always interested in taking cheap shots. He said it was not only Bush admin. to blame for it, but the last decade and half. What that jerk did not say is he voted for most favored nation bill with China.

  14. Obama keeps showing his inexperience. Asked what he would do about the Chinese currency issues, he actually argued he would personally meet with the Chinese leadership and ask them to change their policy. This is so completely naive. How do you think he is going to look when, after asking publicly for such a change, the Chinese turn around and refuse. In high level diplomacy, you must know the answer to your question before asking it publicly. If there is going to be negotiations and movement on the China currency issue the groundwork has to be prepared BEFORE Obama jumps on plane to Beijing.

  15. Isn’t that sort of fundamental in negotiation? Dulcinea, prep before negotiations? I agree completely that BO’s inexperience is showing. And for a lawyer…a lawyer is never suppose to ask a quesiton he doesn’t know the answer to. I think Hillary just shined on the answer to immigration and before that on her visit to China. With respect to the latter, she was able to talk about her experience as an adviser to President Clinton.

  16. reed061, it is a great strategy. She calls the game. When somebody tries to trick her up, she calls them on it.

  17. I totally concur, mollyjrichards, Hillary is shining. She’s not getting much speaking time, but she is truly showing her leadership qualities when she does.

  18. Obama: Illegals should not be allowed to work in the US.

    However, they should have Driver’s Licenses? So they should be able to drive, but not work?

  19. Immigration raids; some turn them in, some take them in. What obligations do American citizens have?

    O: we do not deputize American people to do government’s job – do better job to close borders, prevent immigrants, tougher employer standards, path to legalization. Not going to deputize to grab/turn in immigrants. Should be holding employers accountable. Not criminalize priests or doctors for providing services people need.

    D: hire a nanny – interview – documents not in order? – obligation/held accountable for hiring; slows down legitimate people who come; hatemongers will divide nation; has to control borders, impose penalties; strong position for 20 years – CAFTA – set own labor standards, race to the bottom; give chance to stay in own nations

    K: rely on Constitution; don’t encourage vigilantiism in this country; denying Constitutional rights; eco refuges from NAFTA; negotiate new treaty with Mexico; can’t send them home; policy of inclusiveness

    Q – teaches ESL immigrants – ask for SSN but does not require

    C: Don’t Ask Don’t Tell for institutions? agrees with O, D, K – failure of federal government who places people in this position; can’t criminalize aid, comfort or service to illegals not in keeping with US; what we’re looking at 12-14 million people/workers embedded in our society; can’t round up people; will do deep harm to fabric of our nation; look at failure of federal government to enforce immigration laws

    B: agrees with C; 1.8 million children here; distinction between providing service and providing for hiring of cheap labor – moral distinction; majority of undocumenteds are not Spanish-speaking but with expired visas

    D: most recent arrivals from Latin American countries

    B: obligation on part of employer seeking cheap labor to know whether opportunity given first to American

    E: ?illegal workers exploited – also said do not believe illegal immigration is driving down wages; serious studies have not reached same conclusions – confusion; Poverty Tour – New Orleans and Mississippi – abuses of workers/not paid for work done, not paid overtime, not paid minimum wage – first question “what is your status?”; loss of good middle class jobs (not begun under this admin); issue – what do we do to grow strength of middle class

    Q – follow up – Saturday – undocumenteds punished if they speak up – workers would have rights in Edwards admin – what rights?

    E: not short-term solution; comprehensive immigration reform; ? – what rights? – vulnerable; enforce responsibility of employers; what would you do? – use power of federal government to see that the workers are not abused; paid, safe work conditions, paid for overtime

    O: requires leadership; believes some circumstances where illegals are driving down wages; stop illegals from coming in, hold employers accountable; path to citizenship – rights that they can; what about Jan 2009 – can’t work in US if illegal/crack down on employers, they can’t work; start on pathway to becoming legal

    K: Jan 2009 – let them work; they provide services; establish pathway to citizenship; NAFTA, etc., drove wages down; panel taking Bush admin tact

    G: isn’t it obvious, there has to be a reason why we haven’t solved this problem; low unemployment, people have to fill the jobs; doing jobs that have to be done


  20. Yes, the Topics are not Health Care, SS, Economy..

    Those are NOT the topics Iowans are interested in..

    Iowans want to hear about the War (Iraq/Iran)

    They want to hear about China and they are bearish on Immigration!

    These are the main topics Iowan’s care about!

    Mrs. S.

  21. C: ?support undocumenteds who are working hard but wants to crack down on employers? – no contradiction: tough borders, crack down employers, help to local community; create eco opportunity; path to legalization; put in context – eco is not performing for average Americans (reported unemployment 4.5%) but others have given up looking for work; no new jobs now but were in 1990s; will crack down on employers; debate taken to extreme – unrealistic to round up 12-14 million people (cost and logistics) – people would be outraged at invasion of homes and communities

    O: will initiate process immediately but process will take time and leadership; worked with other Senators that had package same as C talked about; no leadership from Bush to change the tone

    D: failure of leadership by Bush; creating amnesty problem; Republicans want this issue on table but don’t want to talk about Iraq, etc., but want a wedge issue.

    Q for E: H1B visas competition for highly skilled workers – what would you do? expand – why is US not training American workers; they should be doing those jobs. If we don’t have adequate American workers, America is not doing its job of educating people. Believes there are American workers who can do those jobs. Underlying issue is are we making it easier for young people to go to college, etc.

    B: employers aren’t doing their job; not enforcing hiring American workers in exchange for cheaper outsourced labor; sometimes humanitarian needs trump existing law on immigration

    Q – voice mail automated messages; will you remove what question what language we speak when we call US government?

    O: no.

    C: is this country going become a more Spanish speaking country; English as a common unifying language; lot of Americans who speak different languages; challenge to make it clear that people should try to learn English, more ESL

    K: defeated English-only provision; children need to learn to speak languages

    G: immigration has/always will change our society

    B: second generation always speaks English

    D: need to be talking more about languages, source of strength, pride for US

    O: next generation of Spanish speaking children learn English; have broken legal immigration system

    One more question: toughest choice, not made up your mind?

    C: lot of things – so much repair work to do around world, how to stabilize world; won’t say she has all the answers

    G: people are the solution, not government

    O: climate change – science indicates acceleration

    D: education importance

    B: toughest choice is how you rationalize trade policy

    E: who he’d choose as VP; struggle with power of country back to American people and away from corporate America

    K: whether pres and vp should be held accountable for crimes; ready to be president; out to be impeached

    C: host of things – serious economic issues, what to do to stimulate our way out, can’t put burden on middle class


  22. That debate was civil except for some cheap shots from Edwards. The topics were mostly foreign policy and immigration and I don’t think it changed any minds.

  23. How is saying she is not exactly sure what the best way to fully the restore the image of the US is – not a direct answer?

    That was a cheap shot by the moderator.

  24. reed061, total cheap shot by the moderator. However, I think she stood out at this debate, despite her lack of fair time.

  25. Charlie Cook’s latest analysis…

    Early State Victories May Not Figure Into Who Wins Nomination Nods

    There’s a new term this year in the political lexicon: “momentum-proof.”

    It was coined a few weeks ago by former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani’s top strategists to make the point that their candidate’s support in the states that come after Iowa, New Hampshire, Michigan and South Carolina was sufficiently large enough that he could lose in the early states and still hold on to win enough delegates to capture the GOP presidential nomination.

    While no candidate has lost the first four contests and come back to win the nomination, Giuliani’s handlers made a case that this was plausible, and it could turn out to be true. Indeed, it may be even more likely now than it was when Giuliani’s people first articulated it.

    If former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney loses the Iowa caucuses to former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee or wins unimpressively, and if subsequent victories in his next-door-neighbor state of New Hampshire and his native state of Michigan ring a little hollow because they are viewed as home games for Romney, Giuliani might be able to mount a successful comeback.

    While Giuliani has been hit with some tough and potentially damaging stories about his personal life and expenditures during his tenure as mayor in recent days, it hasn’t been a good time for Romney, either.

    If Huckabee had resources and a real organization, this would be the perfect scenario. But he doesn’t, and it isn’t clear that he’ll get them in the next month. If Romney has an ace in the hole, it’s that he will be in a position to outspend Huckabee by a 20-to-1 ratio over the next month — more if necessary. Any Romney victory may require him to win ugly.

    The sharp delineation between Romney, the front-runner in the first three or four states, and Giuliani, who leads most other places, makes this race so confounding and wonderful. Historical nomination patterns are being challenged.

    Another campaign that might use the term “momentum-proof” is that of Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, D-N.Y. In fact, her campaign could use the term with even greater plausibility.

    By my count, out of the 22 Iowa Democratic caucus polls conducted since Labor Day, Clinton has typically led the field more than any other candidate, but Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., has recently begun to close the gap.

    To be fair, most of the margins for both candidates were very small and often within the margin of error. That was the case in a Des Moines Register poll released Sunday, showing Obama with 28 percent and Clinton with 25 percent. The poll of 500 likely Democratic voters was conducted Nov. 25 through Nov. 28 and has a 4-point error margin.

    A Pew Research Center/Associated Press poll [PDF] released Monday showed Clinton at 31 percent and Obama at 26 percent. The poll of 460 likely Democratic voters was conducted Nov. 7 through Nov. 25 and has a 5.5-point error margin.

    Suffice it to say that a race that was already close has gotten even closer in recent weeks.

    But the Pew/AP poll released Monday, showing results not just in Iowa, but also in the other early states of New Hampshire and South Carolina as well as a national sampling (after all, Feb. 5 is pretty much a national primary) shows how bifurcated this Democratic contest is.

    While Iowa is by all measures close, Clinton has large leads over Obama and former North Carolina Sen. John Edwards in New Hampshire, South Carolina and nationally. And even Obama’s latest Iowa standing in the Des Moines Register poll comes with some important caveats, according to the Register’s highly regarded political columnist David Yepsen. In his Sunday column, Yepsen stated that “Obama’s gained 6 points in the last month and has opened up a statistically insignificant lead over Hillary Clinton and John Edwards. That lead looks even weaker when you consider a chunk of Obama’s support comes from younger adults, who are notoriously poor caucusgoers.”

    Yepsen goes on to note that “only 5 percent of likely Democratic caucusgoers are under 25,” and that “in 2004, only 17 percent were under 29.” He adds that “Obama might also be expected to spend a little more time in rural Iowa. He runs weakest there, yet 47 percent of the likely caucusgoers say they’re from rural areas or small towns.”

    Indeed, the caucus process is set up and delegates allocated in a way that ensures candidates strong in Des Moines and other urban areas cannot easily dominate those who are strong in the rural parts of the state.

    The bottom line is that Obama has to show strength beyond Iowa if he is to beat Clinton and win the Democratic nomination.

    Yes, he has to win Iowa in order to live to fight in the next round of states. The latest batch of polls and the balance of the primary and caucus schedule reflect the magnitude of that challenge.

    As popular as it has become to denigrate national polls, they do reflect the attitudes of voters outside the early primary states, whose opinions may, for once, count in the nomination fights.

  26. This was another mess. A mess, because this debate will not help anyone decide who to vote for. The issues were bland and the format did not really make any distinctions between the candidates.

    Edwards was the big loser. He seemed to want to tell anecdotes elicting sympathy instead of answering the questions.

    Where there was possible disagreement, the debate was smothered. The third tier candidates should be happy because they got so much attention.

  27. It was okay. He gave her the closing statement, in effect. This debate will not change any minds but the moderators should be commended for not letting Edwards to keep taking cheap shots. They quickly interjected and asked him to answer the question.

  28. Is anyone else getting to the point where just the sound of Dodd’s voice is like fingernails on a chalkboard?

  29. Admin, I actually think this, ” A mess, because this debate will not help anyone decide who to vote for” helps Hillary. They were not able to mold her into Bush reincarnate on security issues. She sounded like a Democrat.

  30. It’s amazing to me that we have now had two million three hundred thousand debates and not one discussion of the candidates’ health care proposals.

  31. I think Hillary did very well, particularly in the use of her voice. I am very glad that she did get asked about her work in PResident Clinton’s administration.

  32. There was a nice after debate question on the economy, and Hillary’s answer was good.

    Dennis K., said that HRC could be his VP to help clean up the bush economic disaster (takes a Clinton to clean up a Bush) was humorous.

  33. Now guess what answer from Hillary will MSM use to attack her tomorrow? They have to do it. They can’t breathe if they don’t attack her.

  34. Kostner, the Charlie Cook article you posted is somewhat bolstered by this article:

    Facing a likely drubbing in the game of expectations, is it smarter to give it your all and hope for the best? Or to walk away and pretend you weren’t interested in playing in the first place?

    Such is the shape of the Jan. 29 Democratic presidential primary in Florida, where a punishment by the national party and a promise by candidates not to campaign here have left Sen. Hillary Clinton of New York the overwhelming favorite.

    And just a month away from the Iowa caucuses, the indications from the campaign best positioned to challenge her are that it will be the latter – that rather than making a play for momentum in Florida’s primary, Sen. Barack Obama of Illinois will instead concentrate on winning states in the Feb. 5 round of primaries.

    “I think that decision’s been made for us,” said Frank Sanchez, Obama’s lead fund-raiser in Tampa. “Given what’s happened with the national party, we can’t campaign.”

    The last of the Democratic National Committee’s four officially designated “early” states holds its primary Jan. 26. If the Obama campaign honors the pledge he signed not to let Florida usurp any of the early states’ status, his supporters would have all of three days to organize a voter-turnout effort in a state he started working only a year ago.

    In contrast, former President Clinton and wife, Hillary, have been organizing Florida since before his 1992 election.

    That means that just as Republican Rudy Giuliani hopes Florida will be his “firewall” against likely losses in early states, so Clinton could use the state to reestablish herself as a dominant front-runner heading into the de facto national primary a week later.

    “She has true believers. She has the kind of grass-roots support that it takes to win the election in November,” said Chris Korge, Clinton’s top fund-raiser in Florida. “The fact that she has that kind of support in Florida clearly is a tremendous advantage going into Feb. 5.”


    The likely result, in his view? “I’ve seen a groundswell for her down here that I think will carry her.”

    During a pre-sanctions visit in September, Clinton packed the 1,000-person meeting room, with an overflow audience in the lobby, all of them willing to undergo the Secret Service hassle for the chance to see her, Manning said.

    “She was greeted here like a movie star,” he said.

    Of the 4,000 registered Democrats at his Century Village, he said he expects three-quarters of them to vote for Clinton. “Hillary Clinton should carry Florida. If this village is any criterion, she’ll blow ’em all out.”

  35. mj:

    The moment he said Hillary’s campaign lied about that tip I lost all the respect for him. That was really a below the belt shot on a democrat. He made that statement even though they were screaming that they had left a tip.

  36. ra1029, see :

    reed061 Says:

    December 4th, 2007 at 4:12 pm
    There was a nice after debate question on the economy, and Hillary’s answer was good.

    Dennis K., said that HRC could be his VP to help clean up the bush economic disaster (takes a Clinton to clean up a Bush) was humorous.

  37. Now guess what answer from Hillary will MSM use to attack her tomorrow?

    Another week of attacks on Kyl-Lieberman and how “Hillary wants to invade Iran”.

  38. ra102 –

    Anyone on American soil has full Constitutional protection. You can’t have people not covered by Constitutional rights living in our nation without opening the door to tremendously exploitive, abusive behavior.

    And to someone who asked here about working and driver licence – governors are interested in giving driver’s license to illegal aliens because it allows them to keep track of who is in their state. In addition, a great many of them who intend to stay in the US and make a life for themselves get auto insurance. That’s a good thing however you slice it.

  39. mj, not so surprising. Dennis Kucinich is not happy that Edwards is pretending to be the great left leader when the Edwards voting history is quite the opposite. Kucinich enjoys mocking Edwards and his flip flops. Kucinich must also get really angry that Edwards attacks Hillary, making himself a double hypocrite. Kucinich knows that Edwards is a double hypocrite and wants to point that out. Kucinich probably also likes Hillary on a personal level. Kucinich also knows that when push comes to shove it is Bill and Hillary Clinton that come to the rescue.

  40. HWC said:

    Now guess what answer from Hillary will MSM use to attack her tomorrow?

    Another week of attacks on Kyl-Lieberman and how “Hillary wants to invade Iran”.

    HWC, I’m not sure what you mean. She didn’t say anything like that. The soundbite during the debate break was Hillary rebuffing Bush.

  41. DES MOINES, Iowa – Hillary Rodham Clinton accused presidential rival John Edwards of making “outlandish political charges” in portraying her vote against Iran as a pretext for war as the Democratic contenders confronted each other in a debate in Iowa just one month before the state’s leadoff caucuses.


    Clinton came under criticism from her rivals, who highlighted her September vote in Tuesday’s debate, which came the day after release of a new intelligence report that says Iran stopped development of a nuclear weapon four years ago.

    Edwards said Clinton gave President Bush just what he wanted when she voted to designate Iran’s Revolutionary Guard a terrorist organization. Clinton said her vote was meant to encourage diplomacy.

    “Declaring a military group sponsored by the state of Iran a terrorist organization, that’s supposed to be diplomacy?” Edwards interjected. “This has to be considered in the context that Senator Clinton has said she agrees with George Bush terminology that we’re in a global war on terror, then she voted to declare a military group in Iran a terrorist organization. What possible conclusion can you reach other than we are at war?”

    Clinton objected. “You know I understand politics and I understand making outlandish political charges, but this really goes way too far,” said the New York senator, who is locked in a tight three-way race with Edwards and Barack Obama in this first-voting state.

    “None of us is advocating a rush to war,” said Clinton, the only Democratic candidate to vote for the resolution.

    Joe Biden, a senator from Delaware who chairs the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, responded by telling Clinton that “terminology matters.”

    “It’s not about not advocating a rush to war,” he said. “I’m advocating no war.”

    The seven candidates participating in the debate broadcast on National Public Radio stood together in criticizing Bush’s assertion that “nothing’s changed” despite the new intelligence report. They began their debate at the Iowa State Historical Museum by agreeing that the United States should shift its focus in dealing with Iran to diplomatic engagement.

    “President Bush continues to not let facts get in the way of his ideology,” said Illinois Sen. Obama. “They should have stopped the saber rattling, should have never started it. And they need, now, to aggressively move on the diplomatic front.”

    Clinton said it’s clear that pressure on Iran has had an effect — a point disputed by Biden.

    “With all due respect with anybody who thinks that pressure brought this about, let’s get this straight. In 2003, they stopped their program,” Biden said.

    Unlike previous wide-ranging debates, NPR limited its two-hour exchange to three topics: Iran, China and immigration.

    On China, none of the candidates was willing to raise import taxes to make higher-priced U.S. products more competitive with Chinese products. Edwards pledged that none of his children’s Christmas toys would come from China, and Connecticut Sen. Chris Dodd interjected to up the ante.

    “My toys are coming from Iowa,” Dodd said in an appeal to the race’s first voters.

    New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson missed the debate to attend a memorial service for a Korean War soldier whose remains he brought home from North Korea in April.

    WTF? She didn’t say it had an effect on the nuclear program, she said it had an effect on sending weapons to Iraq. Duh?

  42. “Democratic rivals criticize Clinton on Iran in debate”

    See… I told you so. These idiots are so predictable.

  43. basement_angel,

    I get the whole DL debate and how it promotes safety – et cetera (and I totally agree).

    However, I just did not understand Obama saying undocumented workers should not be working in the US coupled with a past statement that they should have driver’s licenses. That is what my comment was about. It just does not make sense to me. Allow individuals to drive, but not work? How does that help?

  44. Oh – btw, I think all the immigration questions/debates are moot without Federal Comprehensive Immigration Reform.

  45. ra1029, hwc, Big Media is so predictable. Just pick the most brainless argument which requires the least work and that is what they will talk about. After your demonstration of soothsaying, we took out our crystal ball too. Here’s our prediction for tonight: Chris Matthews will engage in rabid Hillary bashing.

  46. admin:

    Taylor Marsh already said on her blog that today’s Hardball will be worst. I stopped watching his program long time ago. I don’t want to contribute to this jerk’s ratings.

  47. Heres what I wished. When the moderator asked about the KL Amend..why didn’t she just say what was “stripped” out the amendment..It was so simple.

    Anything that Lieberman put in the KL amend appearing to be language denoting military action, she stripped it out. Hillary’s vote stopped that language from being adopted and was a great “coup” for her.

    Why she doesn’t use it to her advatage and point out Obama was afraid of the vote…

    I’ll never know…Missed opportunities to zing Edwards right back after he singled her out about the KL Vote..

    Thank goodness Kucinich came to her rescue and called Edwards out on China..

    Hillary has to be more agressive with these yahoos..Edwards loves walking all over people..

    Mrs. S.

  48. Sounds typical, glad I missed it. I agree HWC, Dodd is really annoying. “In my view, here, here, here…”.He looks like pol from the 50s? Why is this guy running?

  49. BTW, the yahoo article on the debate has a sentence saying Obama missed the vote because he was campaigning in NH. Good.

  50. kitforhill, dodd is not even going to win his own primary in my state of ct. my 1st district congressman for senate JOHN LARSON-D IN 2010 to replace

  51. Dick Durbin in IL should be defending himself….he is up for election in 2008.

    Obama will have to explain how “dick durbin voted for war with iran, .just like Hillary”


    And also:

    Last time OB said DLs are need for illegals to go to work – not a drive thru a fast chain…I believe somethingn like that.

    Now he does want to give them DLs nnot to go to work… perhaps to go shopping and eating at drive thrus!

    ive busines s

  52. kostner, Who wrote that “dirty tricks” piece you have which included quotes from the women? Sounds like something from politico.

  53. At the end of the day, none of this will matter. I’m certain that the key issue going into voting will be electability — again, just like ’04. The faux Zogby poll publicity is what has softened up her numbers nationwide. The NYT was just piling on today w/ that Boyda article.

  54. I think Hill should wear tall boots and a skirt for the next couple of days. Silly, I know, but it would really through the media for a loop. Can you imagine Chris Matthews reaction if Hillary dared wear a skirt? Hehehe. Plus, I’m sure she would look fabulous.

  55. hillfans, im counting down to 6 weeks until the wife and i can cast our vote for hillary. jan 15th is when absentee balloting begins in connecticut. YAY!!!

  56. Edwards..hmph!

    He gets on my last nerve. He always pretends like he is the source. Like his word is more knowledgeable and important than anyone elses.

    If I hear one more time about his father as a mill worker and how he grew up poor..OMG! When he EVER said, he wants to help the people who through medical bills have to file bankruptcy.

    I couldn’t believe he had the nerve to say such a thing in public, when it was him, just him, that voted “NO” leniency on people with extraordinarily high medical bills forcing them into bankruptcy.

    Hillary shouldn’t let things like that go unchallenged. Stand-up to these hypocrites..Call them out! Make a point,. Let people know, you are not like them. You care about people. That is why your running for President.

    Mrs. S.

  57. mj,

    If Hillary were to wear a dress/skirt and not a pantsuit, the media/blogs would criticize her for being too feminine. She has already been criticized by some because on the Senate floor she had the audacity to show some cleavage – hence her basic wardrobe choices, which she does make look fabulous (goes to show you that accesories/colors can make an outfit).

    However, I do think the boot idea is neat – with a nice allusion to the thickness of the ‘mud’ coming her way!

  58. ….Here’s a link to an online poll on the debate: Of course, Obama is ahead.

    Paula, did you know that Obama has a group of supporters that look for online polls to “stuff” with pro-Obama votes? I found it when looking at his website one day. Might explain why some online polls always show Obama ahead.

  59. Thanks.

    Just read the LATimes article about the poll and was suprised by the unbiased reporting done on the poll.


    Among likely Democratic voters across the nation, the Times/Bloomberg poll found that Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York has maintained a solid lead, even as polls in Iowa show she remains locked in a tight three-way contest there with Sen. Barack Obama of Illinois and former Sen. John Edwards of North Carolina.

    Clinton was favored by 45% of those polled; 21% chose Obama and 11% were for Edwards.

    Those figures represent slight increases for Obama and Edwards and a small dip for Clinton since the October survey. But all the changes fall within the poll’s margin of error.

    The Jan. 3 presidential caucuses in Iowa have the potential to transform the political dynamics and voter opinion nationally for candidates in both parties. But in the Democratic race, the new national survey underscores that despite the close contest in Iowa, Clinton retains a strong advantage elsewhere in the country

  60. MJS, do you have that flyer and if so, can you send admin your info and admin could give it to me. Someone much higher than me wants a copy of it.

  61. I like those numbers. Nice counterpoint to the USA Today poll. Notice how Obama seems to be in the low 20s in virtually all the national polls. If Hillary’s support is softening a bit (probably was weak support to begin with), at least it’s not going to Obama.

  62. Paula,

    That is the biggest point about all these national polls, which show a decline in her numbers, because it does not show Obama gaining. Rather it shows non-top tier candidates picking up – notably Richardson/Biden. Also, I think the poll with HRC’s numbers in the 50s/high 40s were kind of ridiculous (8 candidates and one has half the vote) – even though I did like those numbers. 🙂

  63. Admin, could you possibly email me MJS’s email, someone MUCH higher up wants to ask a question. This needs to be ASAP. This person is very influential. ASAP please.

  64. reed061, Those numbers weren’t sustainable, though they were fun while they lasted, lol. I’m not surprised some of the lower-tier candidates are gaining; this is a very deep field.

  65. CNN Political Ticker
    December 4, 2007

    Bill Clinton knocks media coverage of Hillary

    Former President Bill Clinton is not happy with some of the media coverage of his wife.

    KEENE, New Hampshire (AP) — Bill Clinton said Tuesday that if reporters covered the candidates’ public records better, his wife’s presidential bid would be far ahead of her rivals.

    During a campaign stop on behalf of his wife, New York Sen. Hillary Clinton, the former president said he can’t understand why so much of the media coverage of the campaign ignores her experience — and, without naming him, the relative lack of experience of her closest Democratic rival, Illinois Sen. Barack Obama.

    “One percent of the press coverage was devoted to their record in public life. No wonder people think experience is irrelevant. A lot of the people covering the race think it is (irrelevant),”Clinton said to students at Keene State College.

    Clinton referenced a study from the Project for Excellence in Journalism that indicated much of the coverage of the race is dominated by daily horse race reporting rather than about policy issues.

    “Sixty-seven percent of the coverage is pure politics. That stuff has a half life of about 15 seconds. It won’t matter tomorrow. It is very vulnerable to being slanted and rude. And it won’t affect your life,” Clinton said.

    Clinton also said his wife’s bipartisan work in the Senate proves she can accomplish her campaign’s message of change, and that records matter more than rhetoric. He said that when voters look at records and accomplishments, they will see clear choices between the New York senator and her rivals.

    “I would pick her and be here if we weren’t married,” Clinton said.

    Clinton recalled that this western New Hampshire town was the place he first thought he stood a chance of winning his Democratic Party’s presidential nomination. He did not win the 1992 New Hampshire primary, but his second-place finish helped him position himself as “the Comeback Kid.”

    Hillary Clinton began the current campaign as the Democratic front-runner, but now faces a tightening race here and in Iowa. Her husband is one of several marquee surrogates trekking through snowy New Hampshire. Red Sox pitcher Curt Schilling planned to join Republican Sen. John McCain on Wednesday. Oprah Winfrey planned to join Obama on Sunday.

  66. “top contribution for Clinton and Obama”?

    Clinton = $800,000..we already knew hers..but his
    Obama = $19000. Oboba said he only got 4,000,he got 190,000 he’s name in the report.

    I am glad this time the reporter is more honest than most, including Obama’s name in the report.

    Remember Obama has tipped reporters for Hsu’s downfall to embarrass Clinton? Now it backfires on himself.

  67. the only reason i went there was clinton said ed was way off i never seen that before so then i scrolled down it was that hsu guy i guess 15 counts

  68. Barack Hussein Obama,Hillary Rhodam Clinton,she sues her middle name.he should use his..and that why he cant win with blacks

  69. Hey, I am back. I was at a Human Rights Campaign forum. MJS, please send me as much info as possible on the bussing/trains/carpools thing fomr obama asap. Thank you so much.

  70. hey i never thouht about them trains there cheaper than gas busses..going out of chicago,ive been on them 60 dollars i paid from nebraska to chicago so to davenport 25.00 i bet

  71. NOW and Emily’s List are going after Obama on Choice. Now I just hope they fund some ad son the matter. Hillary cannot do all the criticism of obama-

    Obama Was Present, But He Was Not There On Issues That Mattered to Illinois Women

    In celebration of Women’s History Month, March 28, 2007, the National Organization for Women Political Action Committee, NOW PAC, announced its endorsement of Hillary Clinton for President (see article below).

    Illinois NOW PAC supported the endorsement of Senator Clinton. “She is, after all, our native sister,” said Bonnie Grabenhofer, president of Illinois NOW. “We know from her record and in her heart she will be there for us.”

    Senator Clinton has a long history of support for women’s empowerment, and her public record is a testimony to her leadership on issues important to women in the U.S. and around the globe. She has eloquently articulated the need for full economic, political and social equality for women in every institution of society, taking action throughout her career — as a lawyer, community leader, First Lady, Senator and candidate for the presidency — to advance the civil and human rights of women and girls.

    After looking at his record, Grabenhofer does not feel the same way about Illinois Senator Barack Obama.

    During Senator Obama’s 2004 senate campaign, the Illinois NOW PAC did not recommend the endorsement of Obama for U.S. Senate because he refused to stand up for a woman’s right to choose and repeatedly voted ‘present’ on important legislation.

    As a State Senator, Barack Obama voted ‘present’ on seven abortion bills, including a ban on ‘partial birth abortion,’ two parental notification laws and three ‘born alive’ bills. In each case, the right vote was clear, but Senator Obama chose political cover over standing and fighting for his convictions.

    “When we needed someone to take a stand, Senator Obama took a pass,” said Grabenhofer. “He wasn’t there for us then and we don’t expect him to be now.”

    For more information on the endorsement go to

  72. interstate 80 is it mjs..right on in to davenport.need video camera along that stretch….and the one at depot train

  73. mj, I had that question also. If that flyer was distributed in Illinois a high school student there might think it’s OK to go into Iowa and caucus as long as the other requirements were met.

  74. hows it going celiff in Iowa..she will win and is bill around there to.Iowans love him , they should with all that farm aid they got…and hillary is gonna protect them to when drought season comes along..

  75. Iowa is cold. Very cold. Thank you so much americangal for the flyer. Was this the flyer MJS saw in Illinois offering highschoolers to come to IA to caucus?

  76. terrondt your right…Hillary can’t do all the grit and grind so thats good emilys list let them do a 2 day canvass let her rest on her rivals..,and with celiffs help there to…

  77. I’ve been donating a lot to Hillary’s campaign. Everytime I think about how despicable the media treats Hillary, or how phoney “Mr. Populist” Edwards is, or how slimey Obama’s “good guy” facade is, I’m donating.

    I don’t think I’ve ever wanted anyone to win the Presidency as I do Hillary.

    I think that if Hillary does not get the nomination, I will lose interest in the election. In fact, I know it. At this point, I can’t see myself having the desire to vote for Obama or Edwards.

    Gosh, that makes me a very bad Democrat.

  78. yeah its gonna be so cold jan 3rd there ice storms every 15 mintutes the weather changes there.i read that somewhere. and the orange bowl..

  79. Has anyone here been polled yet by the major polling companies? I’ve been polled once, but it was a dull California survey asking me about state and local officials whose name and policies I wasn’t even aware of.

    I’m waiting anxiously to be polled, but so far, no such luck!

  80. One or two questioned the ethics of it, a few pointed out that it’s legal in Iowa for college students from other states to caucus, some thought it was a move by Hillary to disinfranchise the student vote. Overall, it didn’t get a great deal of discussion (at least not on the particular thread the photo came from). There may have been other threads that were more of a debate.

  81. It’s nice to hear that NOW of Illinois and EMILY’s List are shinning the light on BO’s past sidestepping of important issues (at least to me and I am not even a woman).

  82. AG, that’s interesting. I don’t frequent DU. Perhaps there are alot of teenagers on the site. I found it creepy. And, again, it wasn’t made clear to teens not from Iowa that they could not caucus in Iowa, so that seems at thest less than careful.

  83. just like him sidestepping his senate votes
    you know on voting records hillary missed 40 and bo has missed 78 votes…so far in 2007..what does that tell ya thats almost to 100..

  84. yep at least emilys list halping her out they need to give her rest for at least 2 days.low profile 2 days wont hurt her…to collect relax and her memory which is outstanding, those sorta thoughts and go get Iowa with bill in hand.

  85. debates are useless now even for NH they know Hillary already…if those people in iowa dont know there records and stuff by now lordy they had a full year with all of them…there collecting all that money in that state,so they should have a whole new interstate thru iowa with all that money.

  86. Hillary needs to give a strong statement against Bush on Iran. We now know the weapons program has been shut down for the past 5 years.

  87. MJ, DU is a great place to get links to up-to-the minute information but the debate there is brutal. You are not missing anything. I consider it a sister site of Daily Kos. It is very (and I mean VERY) anti-Hillary. There are lots of personal attacks on people who post, name calling and major distortions. I don’t know if a lot of teenagers post there but the discussion is often very juvenile in tone. There are some people who do post rational, well written and well thought out observations but it’s just not a pleasant site overall.

  88. CJ, I think that it’s still possible that something could happen in the upcoming debates that might impact the caucus and primaries. Someone might make a major stumble or say something off the wall–you just never know. Voters in NH and Iowa may know Hillary already but they don’t know everything about Obama and that’s why the debates are a risk for him.

  89. your correct americgal..i only think hillary but yeah if he stumbles like he does everyday so it will help…call out on that driving crap illegals,and then dont let them work here and if edwards is gonna think americans are gonna sort apples and peaches hes messed up…american’s arent gonna do them jobs

  90. Why would that culinary union endorse Obama? Dumb. Mysilverstate said that endorsement would make Obama the presumptive favorite there. This just seems weird because Hillary is so strong in LV.

  91. thats right he cant debate hes not fluent enough to speak right,uhh uhh ..on fact check i bet hillary goes what english is thee 5 th grade when they posted his attacks words.see how he talks he dont make sense..Hope of Politics is a false claim he makes Its Bogus made up.. to Americans and College Kids ,High schools .

  92. oh only one Union yeah that wont effect her there those gamblers will go with Hill bill.hope she will get steve wynn

  93. CJ, if you read the article, immigration is apparently a “huge issue” for this union. Funny, today Obama didn’t want undocumenteds to have jobs, but he still favors licenses(which the culinary union also supported for Nevada in 2003).

  94. oberman jusy it came out lou dobbs pays immigrants to clean up poop manuer after his showjumping daughters have a show ..he hypocrit.

  95. i read it yep obama flip flop …thye arnt gonna endorse him no way…he didnt want them to have jobs ..idiot..i get it now

  96. Clinton campaign tracks ‘dirty campaign tricks’

    Hillary Clinton’s campaign is starting a file of “dirty campaign tricks” after a handful of supporters reported that negative information about the Democratic presidential candidate is being peddled by telephone.

    Two Iowans reported so-called push polls, where the unidentified callers pretended to be opinion pollsters but instead did little more than bash Clinton. Two other Iowans reported feeling badgered by callers who said they were from the Obama campaign.

    Separately, a caucusgoer who is registered as a Democrat told The Des Moines Register that a push poll Monday evening targeted Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama and John Edwards, in that order.

    Push polling is not illegal in Iowa. Legislation has been proposed, but never passed, that would’ve required callers to disclose who was paying for the negative telemarketing, and whether the candidate had authorized it.

    Clinton pollster Mark Penn said today the campaign has found no evidence tying recent push polls to any campaign.

    Late Monday night, Clinton’s campaign manager Patti Solis Doyle, sent e-mails warning that some supporters have gotten calls telling them incorrect caucus locations.

    An e-mail this morning said: “Nothing says the politics of hope like telling people to go to the wrong caucus locations or getting a negative push poll call during dinner. … The Clinton campaign is setting up a dirty tricks hotline for people to phone in tips about unethical behavior from the Obama campaign.”

    But this afternoon, Clinton spokesman Mo Elleithee pointed a finger at both Obama, a U.S. senator from Illinois, and Edwards, a former U.S. senator from North Carolina.

    “The fact is that our supporters have been telling us for weeks that they have been hearing trash talk at their doors and on the phones, and that some of it is coming from the Obama and Edwards campaigns,” Elleithee said. “Sadly, when it comes to the Obama and Edwards campaigns, there’s what they say and what they do.”

    Obama spokesman Tommy Vietor said Obama’s campaign had nothing to do with the push polls or the caucus-rerouting calls. It set up a Web site on Monday,, to track of all the Clinton’s attacks on Obama.

    “This flat-out falsehood is the latest attack in a silly season where our opponents have promised to stop at nothing in an effort to tarnish Barack Obama’s character,” Vietor said. “Push polling or tactics of confusion have no place in this campaign and we don’t or won’t engage in them.”

    Edwards spokesman Dan Leistikow also denied any involvement from his campaign. “We have nothing to do with these tactics and condemn them. Just last month, our campaign got reports of similar attacks against Senator Edwards. John Edwards has consistently focused on issues and substance and will continue to make his case directly to Iowans.”

    Becky Byrant of rural Aurelia said “a phony pollster” who would only identify herself as from “an independently-owned polling service” called in November. The first question was about Obama, she said.

    Bryant said Clinton is her candidate of choice. “Then she said, ‘Which of these three options best defines your candidate? Inconsistent on major issues, a weak contender in the general election, not able to bring change to Washington,’ ” said Bryant, retired in employment trainer. “I started laughing.”

    Pat Kosters of Rock Valley also got a push poll call.

    “Basically, they asked me questions that were unanswerable other than to confirm something negative about her. They were asking if I thought she was unelectable or unfriendly or cold. I was like, ‘I don’t think any of those things about her.’ ”

    Mediapolis resident Debra Ervin said an Obama volunteer who identified himself as “Seth” argued with her for about half an hour after she said she intended to support Clinton.

    “He was extremely negative and kind of like belittling her,” Ervin said. “I told him this was bullying.”

    The caller eventually apologized. “He said, ‘I’m sorry, I’m just tired,’ ” said Ervin, a nurse.

    An woman who said she was an Obama supporter called Emily Hamilton, a Fort Dodge stay-at-home mom, Monday night. “She started to make some kind of odd comparisons that weren’t related to issues,” Hamilton said. “I felt kind of offended just because she was so pushy.”

  97. oh my god – has anyone read this huffpo story????

    In 1996, as a newly elected governor who had received strong support from the Christian right, Huckabee was under intense pressure from conservative activists to pardon Dumond or commute his sentence. The activists claimed that Dumond’s initial imprisonment and various other travails were due to the fact that Ashley Stevens, the high school cheerleader he had raped, was a distant cousin of Bill Clinton, then the governor of Arkansas, and the daughter of a major Clinton campaign contributor.

    The case for Dumond’s innocence was championed in Arkansas by Jay Cole, a Baptist minister and radio host who was a close friend of the Huckabee family. It also became a cause for New York Post columnist Steve Dunleavy, who repeatedly argued for Dumond’s release, calling his conviction “a travesty of justice.” On Sept. 21, 1999, Dunleavy wrote a column headlined “Clinton’s Biggest Crime – Left Innocent Man In Jail For 14 Years”:

    “Dumond, now 52, was given conditional parole yesterday in Arkansas after having being sentenced to 50 years in jail for the rape of Clinton’s cousin,” Dunleavy wrote. “That rape never happened.”

  98. Ok, i guess my comment posting quotes will take a while to appear but there is an unbelievably appalling story on huffington post about huckabee pressured by the right wing to release a rapist from prison.. why.. because the victim was distant relative of bill clinton. has documentation and all. just horrible.

  99. i didn’t know about it but i don’t follow gop race that closely. how known is known? known to bloggers who pay attention but has it been in mainstream media? i read liberal blog comments usually saying how they like huckabee.. just in a superficial “he seems not crazy” way.. you would think replies would bring up this story if many people knew about it. the waas story on huffpo has letters and everything.
    i know it is off topic somewhat here. but what also upset me was how the right was lobbying for the guy to be released because one victim was distantly connected to the clintons, and the nypost ran an article in 1999 saying bill clinton’s crime was leaving this innocent man in prison

  100. filbert sf,

    are u from the bay?

    havent had any polling myself, too early i think, but soon i sure…
    so glad california doesnt do it like iowa does, huh? barberic…

  101. Terrific internals from the Bloomberg poll. This is perhaps the most surprising and least likely to be cited by Big Media, as it doesn’t fit their narrative.

    Q8. Regardless of your choice for president, who do you think has been best at saying what they believe rather than saying what they think the voters want to hear: Hillary Clinton, John Edwards, or Barack Obama?
    ——————————————– Democratic Likely Voters ———————————————
    None of them (vol) 6 3 8 5 8 5 6 4 7 3 10
    Hillary Clinton 34 34 32 39 22 26 39 24 30 38 41
    John Edwards 19 22 18 17 27 21 18 20 23 20 15
    Barack Obama 27 29 25 25 27 33 22 34 30 26 18
    Someone else (vol) 2 2 2 2 3 1 3 2 1 3 1
    All equally (vol) 2 3 2 3 4 1 4 1 – 4 3
    Not sure 10 7 13 9 9 13
    Says what they believe, Clinton-34, Obama-27
    Prepared well enough to be President; Clinton-72, Obama-38
    Best chance of winning the GE Clinton-54, Obama-17

  102. I am delighted to see from the above blogs that Hillary had another great debate. Her political courage, experience and grasp of the issues was once again on display. I have been fortunate to meet a number of senior political leaders in my time with names you would recognize. Hillary is head and shoulders above any of them.

    Ann Lewis was in town tonight and I went to see her. She spoke on Hillary’s behalf, and explained Hillary’s position on all important the issues in a very compelling way. The entire message was exciting, optimistic and practical, which is of course why we strongly support her.

  103. good morning hillfans. the la times poll is breath of fresh air. it brings the realclear politics average back up to 18 percentage points nationally hillary rhodam clinton over barack hussein obama. yes cj, im going to start using FULL names. nuttin wrong with that.

  104. LA Times poll:,0,2520452,full.story?coll=la-home-center

    Among likely Democratic voters across the nation, the Times/Bloomberg poll found that Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York has maintained a solid lead, even as polls in Iowa show she remains locked in a tight three-way contest there with Sen. Barack Obama of Illinois and former Sen. John Edwards of North Carolina.

    Nationally, Clinton was favored by 45% of those polled; 21% chose Obama, and 11% were for Edwards.

    Those figures represent slight increases for Obama and Edwards and a small drop for Clinton since the October survey. But all the changes fall within the poll’s margin of error.

    Among Democratic voters, Clinton’s continuing double-digit lead suggests that stepped-up attacks on her by Obama and Edwards in recent candidate debates did not drive away backers nationwide.

    Cecelia Holaway, a restaurant worker in Georgia, said she might change her mind about supporting Clinton — but not because of sniping from her male rivals.

    “It’s just because she’s a woman and they feel intimidated by her,” Holaway said.

    Although polls in Iowa have shown Obama making gains in the state among the elderly and women — core pillars of Clinton’s support — he has not done so nationally.

    In the new poll, Clinton continued to build on her strength among the elderly, winning support from 54% of voters over 65 years of age (a 10-point increase since October), compared with 12% for Obama.

    Also, more than half of Democratic-leaning women supported Clinton, far outstripping the 20% for Obama.

    The poll included four hypothetical general-election matchups with Clinton, Obama, Giuliani and Romney. In each case, the Democrat outpolled the Republican — although in some cases by only a narrow margin.

    The widest gap came when voters were asked to choose between Obama and Romney (45% to 33%). The tightest contest was between Clinton and Giuliani (46% to 42%).

  105. man, i just saw hannity and colms on my dvr about this author shelby steele who wrote a book about barack hussien obama not being electable. steele says”obama talks about change, but change to what?” or hope? hope for what?

  106. Read it here!!! Dec. 5 could be the day the worm turned.

    I woke up at 4am (pst) to Morning Joe on TV and heard Joe and his newslady (Mika wasn’t there) reporting about Obama criticizing Hillary for her vote in Iraq and laughing that he hadn’t even shown up.
    They repeated that he wasn’t there because he was campaigning!!! A round of snickers at Obama.

    I dont know what Hillary calumny preceded this moment and there certainly was more after, but this was enough to wake me from a sound sleep.

    It took a while, God knows, but the news has finally come to one MSNBC show (other than Olbermann)
    After the round of criticism of Hillary attacks, it seems that they are listening to her.

    Now what may happen, finally, is that some of these pundits will be unable to stick to their aim to defeat Hillary and will start to poimt out “rookie mistakes” of Obama. They think that their job is to point out how badly the candidates are doing so that they can explain what they should be doing. That’s what makes them pundits.

    Someone may notice, for instance, that Obama and his followers have all denied what he said about his “strongest foreign policy experience” which makes him a liar AND a fool.

    It’s only a crack in the wall but it’s a start.

  107. NEW QUINNIPIAC POLL this morning: “Despite Oprah Winfrey’s support for Illinois Sen. Barack Obama, New York Sen. Hillary Clinton has overwhelming leads, especially among women, in Democratic primaries in three critical swing states, Florida, Ohio and Pennsylvania, according to Quinnipiac University’s Swing State Poll, three simultaneous surveys of voters in states that have been pivotal in presidential elections since 1964.

    posted by Mike Allen/Politico

  108. terrondt,

    Hussein Obama’s GE #s in FL are horrible, horrible. You know Rudy is being dissed by big media on a daily basis, but he still beats Hussein by a wide margin. Hussein will be creamed in GE…

    Here’s the summary:

    Quinnipiac: FL, OH, PA Polls
    Posted by TOM BEVAN | E-Mail This | Permalink | Email Author
    Quinnipiac is out with new surveys in the swing states of Florida, Ohio, and Pennsylvania conducted November 26 – December 3:

    Clinton 53 (+10 vs last poll Oct 19-22)
    Obama 17 (-1)
    Edwards 7 (-5)
    Undecided 15

    Giuliani 30 (nc vs last poll Oct 19-22)
    Romney 12 (nc)
    Huckabee 11 (+3)
    Thompson 10 (-4)
    McCain 9 (-4)
    Paul 4 (+3)
    Undecided 17

    Florida General Election Match Ups
    Clinton 47 – McCain 40
    Clinton 48 – Giuliani 41
    Clinton 50 – Romney 36
    Clinton 50 – Huckabee 35
    Clinton 52 – Thompson 36

    Obama 37 – Giuliani 45

    Edwards 39 – Giuliani 43

    Clinton 45 (+3 vs last poll Nov 6-11)
    Obama 19 (+2)
    Edwards 13 (-1)
    Undecided 13

    Giuliani 29 (+2 vs last poll Nov 6-11)
    McCain 13 (-1)
    Huckabee 10 (+3)
    Romney 7 (-4)
    Thompson 7 (-6)
    Paul 4 (+2)
    Undecided 21

    Ohio General Election Match Ups
    Clinton 44 – McCain 42
    Clinton 45 – Giuliani 41
    Clinton 45 – Huckabee 38
    Clinton 47 – Thompson 38
    Clinton 47 – Romney 37

    Obama 42 – Giuliani 38

    Edwards 45 – Giuliani 38

    Clinton 43 (-5 vs last poll Oct 31 – Nov 5)
    Obama 15 (nc)
    Edwards 9 (-2)
    Undecided 18

    Giuliani 27 (-2 vs last poll Oct 31 – Nov 5)
    McCain 13 (+1)
    Huckabee 13 (+7)
    Romney 6 (-1)
    Thompson 6 (-5)
    Paul 4 (nc)
    Undecided 23

    Pennsylvania General Election Match Ups
    Clinton 44 – Giuliani 44
    Clinton 43 – McCain 43
    Clinton 48 – Huckabee 37
    Clinton 49 – Thompson 37
    Clinton 49 – Romney 37

    Obama 41 – Giuliani 41

    Edwards 40 – Giuliani 44

  109. ya know, abc/wash post does a nh gop poll right? where the heck is the dem poll? i hate when these big media idiots do one party poll then wait days to do the other. maybe they don’t want to release it becuase hillary is doing so well.

  110. These primary polls forcasting the GE are great. But there is a missing ingredient and that is the actual campaign between the matchups. Hillary vs Rudy, when the debates, rhetoric, and truthtellling are in full swing, will be a much different story. I have no doubt of the outcome — Hillary rules!

    Likewise, consider the same with a BO vs Rudy matchup and there is also no doubt of the outcome — Rudy’s a street fighter ready for a down in the mud really dirty brawl. That says it all.

  111. New Zogby Out (Telephone Survey)


    Clinton 27
    Obama 24
    Edwards 21
    Richardson 8

    New Hampshire

    Clinton 32
    Obama 21
    Edwards 16

  112. Vinton Eagle Endorses Hillary Clinton for President
    Benton County’s Vinton Eagle: “In 2008, Clinton is the best choice for America.”
    DES MOINES, IA – The Vinton Eagle, a weekly paper serving Benton County, endorsed Hillary Clinton for President today, saying “Sen. Clinton offers the complete package for what America needs in 2008.”

    The Eagle’s endorsement cited Hillary Clinton’s 15- year history of fighting for universal health care, her advocacy on behalf of children and families coping with autism, and her experience in foreign policy, saying,

    “After eight years of indecision and mismanagement of the presidency, America needs greatness; someone who is already presidential; someone who is ready for the job…In the current field on either side, only one candidate fits that description, and that is Hillary Clinton.”

    With a paid circulation of over 2,500, and readership of over 5,000 residents, the Vinton Eagle is the most widely read local newspaper in Benton County.

    The full text of the Vinton Eagle endorsement editorial is below.

  113. lol, the telephone zogby poll is more like it. that online poll the nutkooks went gaga over was garbage. thanks for the poll scoop dcdemocrat. take that BARACK HUSSIEN OBAMA!!!

  114. In the online poll only the nutkooks might have voted. I was surprised that she was even leading there. I was expecting it to be like the dailykos poll. 🙂

  115. This is even more encouraging from Zogby’s comments on IA race…

    Since last month, however, Clinton was able to solidify her standing among some likely caucus–goers by increasing the number of people who said she would be their second choice. This is a critical factor in the Democratic caucus in Iowa. In the caucuses, a first round of “balloting” is conducted, and those candidates who do not win at least 15% support are ruled “unviable” and supporters are directed to a second choice among those who remained “viable” before a second round of “balloting” is conducted.

    Last month, Obama and Edwards were much more preferred as a second choice among those candidates who appear to be unviable under Democratic caucus rules. Clinton appears to be gaining ground among those who might consider experience to be an important factor in choosing a nominee – she wins the lion’s share of support among those who make Biden their first choice, and she does well among those who would first choose New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson.

    Among those who make Obama their first choice, Edwards is their second choice, and vice versa. Among those who make Clinton their first choice, Obama is the favorite second choice.

    Among independents who said they would caucus with the Democrats, Obama leads with 31%, followed by Edwards at 26% and Clinton at 19%.

    Among Iowa women, Clinton leads with 33%, followed by Obama and Edwards, both at 23%. Among men, Obama leads with 26%, followed by Clinton at 20% and Edwards at 19%. Richardson wins 10% and Biden 9% among men.

  116. I think there was a brief flirtation with Obama, but the idea of him as president is less and less palatable as people get nearer the time they have to make a decision. We have had a rough go, but there’s been refreshing news the past 24 hours.

    Kostner, thank goodness Hillary is making such a strong showing among the women in Iowa.

  117. you said it, dcdemocrat. hillary regained her footing despite the dogs of the media and the punk. but it is going to be a rollercoaster ride all the way thru feb 5th. let’s all exhail and party in victory here on the night of feb 5th.

  118. Other stuff from Zogby: Clinton get strong second place support from Biden and Richardson, and they are not likely to cross the 15%. Obama’s main support as No. 2 comes from Hillary supporters and Edwards supporters, and they are likely to cross the 15% and retain their numbers.

  119. terrondt: The dogs are out of the kennels, and there is going to be blood on the ground. I am glad we’re supporting the pro in this race.

  120. Ben Smith/Politico leaks the following:

    Hillary Clinton holds her own in New Hampshire among likely Democratic primary voters: After a considerable drop in support in last month’s poll, Hillary Clinton’s lead over her Democratic rivals for the 2008 New Hampshire Democratic Presidential Primary has steadied

  121. Sorry … leak from NH Marist poll:

    Hillary Clinton holds her own in New Hampshire among likely Democratic primary voters: After a considerable drop in support in last month’s poll, Hillary Clinton’s lead over her Democratic rivals for the 2008 New Hampshire Democratic Presidential Primary has steadied

  122. DC, I think I figured out her strategy as of late. Obama has spent months doing this passive aggressive attack thing where he was pulling out Gerth’s secret pact and all kinds of mud, but not directly taking her on. So, I think she has directly taken him on, on policy and the notion that he is so above it all, and Obama has been ineffective a fighting back. Hence she is solidfying her preception as “strong”, and he’s…well, he’s not.

  123. Another good poll coming out of NH soon. According to Politico:

    From the analysis of the New Hampshire Marist Poll out later today:

    Hillary Clinton holds her own in New Hampshire among likely Democratic primary voters: After a considerable drop in support in last month’s poll, Hillary Clinton’s lead over her Democratic rivals for the 2008 New Hampshire Democratic Presidential Primary has steadied

  124. I think these polls will give pause to Obama. Guess what they’ll do. They will go direct attacks on Hillary, which is exactly what Clinton needs at the moment.

    To pull him down in Iowa is the top priority.

  125. re Jay Carson, former Howard Dean and current HRC press secretary:

    Last month, after Mrs. Clinton trounced her opponents during a debate in Las Vegas, he walked—all smiles—into a union hall and told reporters that Barack Obama had shown his inexperience by taking the bait on a Robert Novak column reporting that the Clinton campaign was had dirt on the Illinois senator.

    “A Democratic candidate should be smart enough not to fall into a trap,” said Mr. Carson, adding, “If you don’t know how to do that in a primary, you are going to be in a world of hurt in the general.”


    These days, when Mr. Carson sees Mr. Obama’s noisy supporters shouting antiestablishment rhetoric on the campaign trail, he cuttingly points out to reporters that they remind him of the Dean campaign.


    While Mr. Obama has criticized the Clinton campaign’s tough tactics, Mr. Carson is unapologetic. He said that to beat the Republicans, “you have to be as tough as they are in order to win. But there is a difference between nasty and tough. If a mugger confronts you in an alley, you don’t mug him back; you punch him in the face and stop him.”

    Then, after a pause, Mr. Carson said, “You can’t hope him away from you.

  126. wow, the string of good polling the last 24 hours is great. a week of low news got me going. but we can’t let up on em. they will keep coming hard at hillary. they will stop at nothing. we can’t stop at nothing.

  127. Zogby

    Clinton appears to be gaining ground among those who might consider experience to be an important factor in choosing a nominee ? she wins the lion?s share of support among those who make Biden their first choice, and she does well among those who would first choose New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson. Among those who make Obama their first choice, Edwards is their second choice, and vice versa. Among those who make Clinton their first choice, Obama is the favorite second choice. Among independents who said they would caucus with the Democrats, Obama leads with 31%, followed by Edwards at 26% and Clinton at 19%. Among Iowa women, Clinton leads with 33%, followed by Obama and Edwards, both at 23%. Among men, Obama leads with 26%, followed by Clinton at 20% and Edwards at 19%. Richardson wins 10% and Biden 9% among men.

  128. So, BO and JE cannot pick up the “seconds” since they cancel each other out and HRC won’t be giving up any of hers. She could pick up Biden or Richardson.

    What about Dodd, Kucinich, Gravel seconds?

  129. A double digit lead in NH, anything from 10-15 points is always helpful at this point. If she carries this through end of Dec, thats just great.

    There is a new WPo/ABC NH poll coming out this pm I heard ? Dont forget that they have always been kind of outliers in Iowa so take them with a grain of salt if they show a closer NH race than Zogby . But I wouldnt be surprised if the media and the haters jump on them and forget about this poll if the numbers are not as good for Hillary as Zogby shows because at this point, they are just going to push the Obama “surge” narrative to the fullest.

    All in all, it appears that she is very much capable of squeaking through in Iowa !

  130. More Zogby (emphasis mine):

    In NH: Clinton 32(38) Obama 21(23) Edwards 16(12) The last NH poll was done in September. It appears Clinton is losing some ground, but Obama is not moving up at all. He’s mired in low 20s in NH.

  131. This will go over well:

    In a New Hampshire spot, Edwards returns to a somewhat tougher talking point, suggesting that his rivals are “a crowd of corporate Democrats” who are part of a “rigged” system.

    I don’t see NH folks getting all that inspired by this rhetoric. Sounds like sour grapes.

  132. Love that last quote from Jay Carson!

    Also, it’s welcome news that Hillary is picking up second-choice votes from Biden and Obama supporters, especially since Biden seems to be climbing there.

  133. ra1029 – sorry I forgot to answer your question about the culinary union….I was waiting to talk to the campaign here — it’s still early. They were expected to endorse Hillary as of about 2-3 weeks ago. Don’t know if they aren’t ready yet or are still deciding but I’ll find out.

    They are heavily Latino — and that group has been very pro-Hillary. If you attend organizational meetings here, it is as if designed by Frank Capra.
    women/men, old/young. blacks/whites/ latinos/orientals and assorted accents — everyone very friendly and unhierarchical.

    This used to be true in CA – except for male-dominated meetings with female majorities.
    NV used to be racist, Republican, with a libertaran streak. It gives one real hope for America that we can get over our xenophobia.

    Besides the Democratic surge here and other places, I think some of this is the computer. When you read these posts, can you tell who is what?
    If their monikers don’t tell, can you tell who is even female or male? Black? Old? Gay? Does it matter a bit when you are having a debate? Can you predict who will agree based on their origins?

    I just love it. And when you find your favorite posts, and the author then reveals something about him/herself, I nearly always say, “No kidding,”
    Because the image in my head is often wrong.

    On that topic, and way over-generalizing here, have you noticed the reaction of some older black women to Obama? It’s sort of like their youngest child who keeps thinking he should be on a par with the eldest. The women seem to say, “It’s past your bedtime. We’ll talk tomorrow” They are sweet about it but they aren’t buying his line.

  134. Hello,

    Clinton ‘plant’ is an Obama support. Gosh…

    From NBC/NJ’s Aswini Anburajan
    She’s baaaaaaack. The young college student who asked Clinton a planted question at a campaign appearance last month, Muriel Gallo-Chasanoff, made a cameo at an Obama rally at Grinnell College last night.

    Obama, as he’s accustomed to doing on the stump, joked before taking questions, “These questions have not been pre-arranged or pre-determined.”

    But when he said that, a group pointed to one girl standing front and center near the stage. Obama looked at her and said, “Is this the young lady right here? Oh my goodness.”

    He went on to joke, “I didn’t know she was going to be here. I’m not going to call on her!”

    Gallo-Chasanoff was hidden by the crowd from the cameras on the press riser, so her response or what she may have said was lost. She kept a loyal cohort of friends around her as she dodged reporters after the event was over.

  135. Obama attacks Hillary, she pushes back, and he then calls it silly. I think he is the one who is silly, but more important CHILDISH. This is the ploy of a 4 year old, and we have all seen it before in our own families. Wouldn’t this be a great way to negotiate with China?

  136. B Merryfield, Edwards’ middle name is sour grapes. BTW, the last Marist poll had Hillary up 12 in NH, so the new numbers will probably be identical or within one or two points of that. In other words, it’ll be a double-digit lead.

  137. There was some post NPR debate focus group discussions and a factcheck review
    mentioned on NPR:

    Focus group:
    One men said that he found Hillary’s honesty in saying she does not have all the answers very refreshing. Another women metioned that she was less wishy-washy even though she supports obama. Another mam said it appeared that some candidates (Obama?) act like a deer has been hit by headlights.

    Analyst opinion: Issue of whether irg as terrorist has lessened attacks in iraq and issue of oil price spike.

    They thought hillary was right that such attacks in iraq with weapons/ieds issued from iran have lessened even though reasons may not yet available why. But they refuted that oil prices spiked up since that terrorist classification as Biden claims.

    Looked good for Hillary!

  138. kostner, Strategic Vision tends to show Hillary doing worse in Iowa than other polls do anyway. I’m not worried. If the press crowns Obama as the favorite there, that’s fine with me. More pressure on him then.

  139. Major Garret was on Laura Ingram’s radio show today. He is reporting for fox news from Iowa. He is saying that Clinton campaign has a firewall and it won’t impact them much even if they loose Iowa. He says that even though Clinton camp is saying that we are reading too much into her speeches and they intend to win Iowa, the Edwards and Obama camps beleive that the tough rhetoric, Hillary adopted towards Obama is to make sure that Obama does not win, and that she is okay with an Edwards win in Iowa.

    Ingram also said the same thing. Something like “These guys might be able to beat her in Iowa but she will clean their clocks in other places. She is much more tougher than these guys.”

  140. ra1029,

    I have long argued this strategy. It’s a gamble, but may be well worth it.

    We need Edwards to win IA. If he wins IA, Obama will likely lose NH.
    Edwards is closing in on Obama in NH and Obama has made little progress there despite the slippage by Clinton.

    If Edwards wins IA, you can be assured that Obama will fade away in NH.

  141. Hillary’s team should hit Obama with this:

    Hillary will work hard for every American and is willing to take a stance on tough issues and not just vote “present”. An American president does not get to vote “present” when their is a national crisis. All supporters of Obama should just vote “present” in the polling booth just like Obama.

  142. This is what desmoinesdem posted on mydd. I thought it was interesting.

    “I saw a friend today who is an Edwards precinct captain in a different suburb of Des Moines. We have a mutual acquaintance who is very active in Hillary’s campaign here.

    She told my friend yesterday that if the Des Moines Register poll is accurate, it means that Edwards would win the caucuses if they were held today. Her reasoning was similar to what lori has written on several thread about the internals. This is coming from a very involved Hillary supporter in Iowa.”

    and two comments later this.

    “It doesn’t just have to be in the precincts where Hillary is not viable. Let’s say in my precinct Hillary has enough supporters for one delegate with a dozen people to spare but has no chance of picking up enough support to get a second delegate.

    Would her precinct captain send a few supporters over to Edwards to make sure that Edwards walks out of the precinct with more delegates than Obama?

    I bet she would.

    I wrote about this stuff in part 5 of my Iowa caucus series:

  143. hillfans, i know rass’s tracking poll can act kooky at times but geez! it is now hillary 34% to barack hussien obama’s 24%, 10 point spread. and watch out for huckabee ahead nationally with 20% to crossdresser guliani’s 17%.

  144. I think these pollsters (rasmussen) were trying to catch up with other pollsters who were showing a drop for Hillary the last few weeks. Now, all of a sudden since other pollsters are showing a bounce for Hillary, I am sure rasmussen will follow suit; else people might think his polls are unreliable outliers.

    It is always the herd mentality. To be part of a herd.

  145. terrondt, sometimes pollsters will ask a question with the poll that drives down support for one person or another. For example, Hillary’s number were way down when Rass polled the baby bond proposal with the presidential poll questions, as they did for a couple of weeks this summer. So, my guess, they are asking are Hillary’s attacks too negative, or some such question, which depresses support.

  146. the crossdresser thing to guliani is no joke. at some event while mayor of new york, he dressed in drag. the “moral values”crowd is going to love that in the gop.

  147. kostner:

    Let’s hope the rest of MSM will pick up on Obama plant at the Clinton event who got incorrectly labeled as Clinton plant.

  148. unbelievable. those a**holes pounded hillary for several weeks on that plant. wtf. this is how dirty and low he is willing to get. man, i want this guy nailed. hussien obama has to be schooled.

  149. mj:

    This what I am talking about.

    Clinton ‘plant’ is an Obama support. Gosh…

    From NBC/NJ’s Aswini Anburajan
    She’s baaaaaaack. The young college student who asked Clinton a planted question at a campaign appearance last month, Muriel Gallo-Chasanoff, made a cameo at an Obama rally at Grinnell College last night.

    Obama, as he’s accustomed to doing on the stump, joked before taking questions, “These questions have not been pre-arranged or pre-determined.”

    But when he said that, a group pointed to one girl standing front and center near the stage. Obama looked at her and said, “Is this the young lady right here? Oh my goodness.”

    He went on to joke, “I didn’t know she was going to be here. I’m not going to call on her!”

    Gallo-Chasanoff was hidden by the crowd from the cameras on the press riser, so her response or what she may have said was lost. She kept a loyal cohort of friends around her as she dodged reporters after the event was over.

  150. that “plant” girl has some serious credibility issues. she asked Hillary that question happily, not complaining and even winking at the end.. then she wants to “out” hillary’s campaign. now she goes to an obama event. and he will try to spin it by saying that she’s just checking him out and is not a supporter. ha ha ! and of course, the media will buy this latest BS from BO.

    You know how the big media and blogs were trying to spin those push-polling calls in Iowa by his supporters – the ones that shouted on the phone if you didn’t agree with them ? As overzealous staffers who could be excused !! And if an eager staffer gives someone a question to ask at an event when that someone has requested for questions herself, then Gosh – its a “plant scandal” !! The hypocrisy is sickening .

  151. dt:

    Once the Clinton plant event got to the press, Obama has been taking a dig at her at every event saying that there are no plants at his events. So, to get some additional mileage out of it, they brought her there so that they can crack some more jokes at Hillary and put it out in the press.

  152. kostner-

    Where is that SV poll link? I only see the 11/28 poll on their site, and it’s a tie at 29%. RCP now lists Iowa a tie, after adding the Zogby.

  153. “Is this the young lady over here ? my goodness ..”

    As if he didnt know earlier !!!!??? Who is the punk fooling ? He remembered her face so well ( i dont think he has ever met her) after so many days, even after meeting so many people on the trail. And that remark itself tells you something. how on earth would he know who his staffers were pointing to and what they were saying/implying if had not been briefed in advance ???

    The whole thing was probably staged. A**hole ..

  154. dt:

    All those statements from Obama were staged just like some idiot asking Obama in NH to bring Oprah down there and he immediately responded that he is planning on bringing her soon and in two days announcement comes out. You think he is not staging all this stuff?

    He is a lucky bastard in that no one in the press calls him on it.

  155. Ofcourse it’s staged. It totally fits into his childish passive agressive swipes at Hillary. Well Iowa must not be going as well as he likes to pretend. This is a sad act.

  156. lucky bastard alright, ra1029. that’s why hes managed to get this far. the media is still breast-feeding him and will continue to do so.

    one more thing – if anyone had gotten hold of anything dating back to Hillary’s school days that suggested that she wanted to get involved in politics, the media and the haters would be saying “look, we told you how scheming and ambitious she was right from the time she was a kid”. the campaign should have responded to the kindergarten story by saying “if mr barack hussein obama was getting international experience as a first grader as he says he was , it means that he was a kid beyond his years. that he wanted to be president also just shows how ambitious even then. it looks like he wanted to build on his international experience”.

    that would have shut them up since it it shows how silly he was making that statement and it deserved mocking in its own special way.

  157. We have two polls from New Hampshire coming out today evening, right? One from Marist and one from Washingtonpost…

  158. Which is why Edwards should be training his guns on Obama, far more than he has to date. Or maybe he is and I am just not seeing it. Either way it is his last best hope.

  159. Ben Smith/Politico:

    The textile and hotel union UNITE HERE is going the way of SEIU, in which some top leaders’ pro-Edwards sentiment wasn’t enough to bring key locals around, and the union wound up letting locals go their own way.

    For now, that’s the provisional stance as the most important local for primary purposes — the Nevada Culinary workers — is holding out until “early January,” according to a release:

    “The Executive Committee of the International Union UNITE HERE has resolved to authorize the Chicago and Midwest Regional Joint Board to support its members’ efforts on behalf of the Presidential campaign of Senator John Edwards.

    “That affiliate will commit staff, volunteers and financial resources to the Senator’s campaign in Iowa starting immediately as election laws allow.

    “It will sign on to a participation agreement already in effect in that state which includes affiliates of several other unions, including SEIU, the Carpenters, the Steelworkers and others.”

    That may give Edwards what he needs, but it deals another blow to labor’s national strength, which is all about unity.

  160. Reading over articles today, even if he is polling well, the negative buzz is all over the place about Huckabee. And I was so looking forward to a Ghouliani and Ravioli alternative for Hillary to kick around. We may get stuck with McCain after all.

  161. WTF? Some Clinton volunteer forwarded a negative Obama email in Iowa. Why would they do something so stupid? I hate when these dumbass volunteers take things into their own hands.

  162. This ad is good, sort of preemptive strike by Hillary campaign in Iowa.

    Clinton: ‘Wes Clark’

    Hillary’s going up in Iowa with a direct-to-camera spot from Wesley Clark, who dismisses the “attacks” against her as “politics” and contrasts it with her “leadership” and his war record.

    Script after the jump.

    Clinton: I’m Hillary Clinton and I approved this message.

    Clark: I see that Hillary’s opponents have started attacking her. That’s politics. What this country needs is leadership.

    Clark: I’m Wes Clark; I commanded our forces in Europe when we won the fight to halt ethnic cleansing in Kosovo.

    Clark: I’ve known Hillary Clinton for twenty-four years. I know she has what it takes to end the war in Iraq, avert war with Iran, and restore our country’s standing in the world.

    Clark: These are tough times and Hillary Clinton is the right choice for America.

  163. One of Tweety’s favorite suckups, Ron Christie, has Hillary’s campaign imploding and her getting ready to turn off the lights, but James Joyner tsk tsks cross-eyed Christie:

    Certainly, Clinton has taken a bit of a tumble. It inevitably happens to frontrunners — especially inevitable ones. All the other candidates gun for the candidate at the top of the heap. The media get bored with the same old story and are looking to knock the leaders down a peg. And, as happened here, candidates often shoot themselves in the foot.

    Hillary Clinton has all the tools she needs to recover, however. A ton of cash on hand to rebuild her standing with advertising buys. A formidable campaign organization. The discipline and experience that comes with years on the national scene. And, by the way, she still holds a 19 point lead in the national polls and a margin of 11.7 and 23 in the New Hampshire and Michigan primaries, respectively, over her nearest opponent. I wouldn’t write her off just yet.

    While self-inflicted, this tumble in the polls actually works to Clinton’s advantage in some ways. It takes the pressure off to run the table. Indeed, if she winds up winning in Iowa now, it’s a huge story whereas it was merely expected a week ago.

    Her husband managed to spin a third second place finish in New Hampshire in 1992 into a victory, proclaiming himself the “Comeback Kid.” It wouldn’t surprise me at all if Hillary pulled off the same feat.

  164. Kostner:

    The Wes Clark ad is the positive “high-road” way to make the commander-in-chief argument that Obama’s Robert Gibbs took down the negative low road with his Dean/Osama hit ad in 2004.

  165. BMerryfield:

    Huckabee is just the latest incarnation of the strong Republican “none of the above” vote. Just like Thompson during the summer. Fact of the matter is that the Republican base can’t stand any of their candidates. They’ll grasp at any straw to avoid voting for the Crossdresser, the Mormon, or McCain.

  166. For entertainment value alone, if nothing else, I’d love to hear Hillary compliment Dennis Kucinich in a debate. I like Dennis a lot – in fact, I like all the Dem candidates but one particularly oily one. Can you imagine the hysteria over DK if Clinton found a way to address Kucinich’s admirable fidelity to his personal political philosophy? I mean, I don’t always understand all of his vote (SCHIP in particular), but the man is consistent. You can usually figure out exactly how he is going to vote.

    I’d just have fun watching puritanical left heads explode all over the nation.

    I know, I know, it’s a campaign and she can’t do that. But boy, would it be fun.

  167. Hillary is giving a major speech on Wall Street challenging the business community to voluntarily embrace her three point plan for addressing the mortgage crisis and promising to introduce legislation if they don’t.

    1. Moratorium on foreclosures

    2. Freeze adjustable rate mortgages for at least five years.

    3. Provide regular updates on progress made towards working out problem loans.

  168. “The 16,000-member New Hampshire affiliate of the National Education Association has chosen to recommend to its members Hillary Clinton in the Democratic primary and Mike Huckabee in the Republican primary, according to a source within the state NEA. This is the first time the state affiliate has picked a candidate in the GOP primary, and it follows Huckabee’s showing as the only Republican who spoke to the NEA convention in July.”

  169. HWC, interesting that you bring up Huckabee and Thompson. Today is the last day to get on the ballot here in Oklahoma and they’re the last who haven’t done so previously.

    The rape story re: Huckabee sure has legs, huh? As does the Obama bussing story….

  170. Just got an email to let me know that the link to my SW article on BO’s Hopefund has gone out on CMD’s 25,000 person email list.

    BO can run but he can’t hide!

  171. Obama basically voted ‘not present’ on Kyl-Lieberman. If he voted for K-L, he’d piss off Daily Kos. If he voted against K-L, he’d piss off the Israeli lobby. So he did what he had learned in Illinois–he ducked the vote.

  172. terrondt paula helps calling him barack hussein Obama..i was work today. i said who you voting for ..she said i think hillary..i said cool .Hillary R.Clinton i said herr full name..i said what about that the black man i said barrack hussein obama..she goes eew gosh,,that would scare me, she said hes a stoner ..I dont need a stoner for president…I laugh so bad…i didnt say anymore.

  173. Thats a good one Canaan – they should come out with a new line on him – “Obama – The senator who wishes there were only 2 ways to vote – “Present or Not Present”.

  174. I hope some staffers are reading this – next time Obama hits Clinton over Iran , all she has to say is “my opponent did vote on that resolution and his vote said Not Present ” .

    Touche!! ( hat tip to Canaan )

  175. did anyone watch ‘the closing bell’ on cnbc?

    i just got in on the tail end of it, but hillary sounded strong, they are about to have the commentators give their impression of her appearance…

  176. Union Leader with Marist NH Poll Numbers

    Dems: Clinton 37, Obama 23, Edwards 18, Richardson 8, Kucinich 3, Biden 1, Dodd less than 1, Undecided 10

    GOP: Romney 29, Giuliani 17, McCain 17, Huckabee 11, Paul 6, Thompson 4, Hunter 2, Tancredo 1, Undecided 13

    Margin of error 4%

  177. Change since November poll:

    Dems: Clinton +1, Obama -2, Edwards +4, Richardson +2, Kucinich same, Biden -1, Dodd -1, Undecided -3
    GOP: Romney -4, Giuliani -5, McCain +4, Huckabee +4, Paul -1, Thompson -1, Hunter +1, Tancredo same, Undecided+1

  178. From NBC’s Andrea Mitchell
    In her speech to the NASDAQ, Clinton has called for a moratorium of at least 90 days on foreclosures of subprime loans. Second, she’s proposing a five-year freeze on fluctuating rates on subprimes so they can be converted into fixed rates. Third, she’s demanding that the mortgage industry gives status reports on the amount of mortgages it is modifying.

    Finally, she says if a voluntary solution cannot be reached, she will consider legislation to solve the problem. She also blamed the industry, regulators and the rating agencies for the subprime mess.

    She plans on threatening legislation if Wall Street does not help those who’ve been hurt. This is a very unusually tough, populist position for her and could reflect internal polling showing Edwards’ strength in Iowa.

  179. It does appear to me Edwards is creeping up in NH, which is not a bad thing.

    As I said, the key is to hold Obama/Edwards within striking distance in NH. Assuming Edwards finishes 1st or 2nd in Iowa, his support in NH will not evaporate, in a multi-candidate field, if no anti-Hillary candidates emerges in NH, she will likely win in the end.

  180. Here’s my post in First read;

    Look at the language and slant of the two most recent slabs of red meat tossed into our cage. Obama, “models”, himself after JFK, Lincoln (and Jesus?), whereas Hillary, “threatens”, Wall St., with a populist slant that COULD be poll driven.
    Implication; Obama is inspired. Clinton is calculating.

    But you, “experts”, don’t really KNOW if Obama’s speech was poll driven or if Clinton’s is a true reflection of feeling that inspired her rhetoric, do you?.

    It’s simply following the paint-by-numbers narrative that is becoming so well established and painfully obvious that it could be official editorial policy.

    Sounds like Clinton has taken a stand for the middle class and the literally MILLIONS of homeowners who are feeling more than a little insecure this Holiday season. Thanks from all of them for casting aspersions on her sincerity. I don’t even know if I agree with her proposals, but I know that I take offense at your negative characterization of them and the woman behind them.

  181. Edwards is such an idiot that all this while he didn’t realize that it was Obama he had to beat, not Clinton. and he could have done it. maybe he still can.
    Now, he’s neither here nor there and theres no way in hell that he can even be considered for a Clinton ticket. his hate got the better of him.

  182. dt: If I were Obama and Edwards, I would have done what they did. They did create some uncertainty in the race that didn’t exist before. My guess is that Edwards is hoping he will win Iowa and Hillary will take care of Obama. The real question is whether he even has conceived of a plan beyond New Hampshire.

  183. The ambulance-chasing shyster’s latest ad should really play well in Democratic primaries:

    And we can say as long as we get Democrats in, everything is going to be OK. It’s a LIE. It is not the truth!

    I don’t get it. Is he telling me to vote Republican?

  184. kostner,

    the pundits on the closing bell, said after the clinton call for the moritorium, the stock market went immediatly up 200 points…

    they said that she did not name call or blame anyone in the bush campaign for the morgage problem, but that she said she would like to see the president be successful in helping this problem.

    the one guy said he was impressed.

    now she is going to be interviewed by maria on the next segment

  185. DC – what I cant understand about Edwards is that though he is within striking distance of Obama, he still prefers to go after Clinton to the extent of even defending Obama against Clinton(kindergarten story, indonesia etc).

  186. B Merryfield, I wonder if McCain will end up with the nomination. He’s making headway in NH, and if Romney loses Iowa to Huckabee, Romney will probably slip in H, allowing someone like McCain to steal a win there which would give him major momentum.

    Also, that’s a spot-on analysis by James Joyner. Another thing to keep in mind is this: If Hillary feels she can take time to give a big Wall Street speech today, and not be in NH or Iowa, for example, then she must be in pretty good shape.

  187. I met Wes Clark today. He was great. b.o. was in town last night, encouraging illinois college kids to come back to caucus, cuz he can’t win on his own right with Iowans. We are going to be following up his visit with a much more popular person probably monday. Does anyone have the info on that flyer yet, besides the one he handed out in mass droves here in Iowa?

  188. On another note, I have been watching the press stories, and the postings here and elsewhere and something has been becoming more readily apparent by the day only to be proven today by Scarborough’s jokes about Bwak…

    We have all been pissed at the MSM’s propping up of Bwak for months- for them not challenging his street cred so to speak. His lack of domestic or foreign policy experience, his ties to criminal and corporate interests…. We have joked about his egotism, his overriding ambition and his lack of loyalty to others. We have taken issue with his hypocrisy and the MSM’s manufactured story of his “rise.” We know he is a man-made creation. As all-natural as a Twinkie. And many of us knew it when he took the stage in 2004 at the Democratic National Convention.

    Today, with Morning Joe’s comments, we see the dam breaking. We see the fruition of Obama’s mistaken belief that everyone loves him when they were using him like they use all of the candidates to drum up a story, to drive up site hits, paper sales, and advertising revenues.

    See Obama should have been reading this site and our blog entries when we psychoanalyzed him. We knew months ago what Obama lacks the depth to know about himself- he has too great a reliance on sycophants.

    None of us know why with any certainty, maybe it has to do with his father’s absence and his mother’s early death. More than likely it had to do with being a mixed child in a still racist world. Regardless of the setting, he was a “black” child of a single, white mother. It didn’t matter that he had a loving family. The stares were there. And toss in his Asian stepfather and half-siblings and he “fit” less and less. My guess- he developed a chameleon-like ability to make people happy (he sells it as coalition building now). He sold it well, but still it’s a defense mechanism to feeling unloved, unwanted and unaccepted by the world at large. It’s also disingenuous. And it’s exactly what has left him without any true convictions once you look past the soundbyte politics at which the MSM proclaims he excels.

    Obama has been accused of lacking experience and being naive. I think it’s true. Not only in the sense of the reaction to Novak’s third rate, fourth hand gossip column or the meeting with rogue countries without preconditions or bombing Pakistan, but also in the sense he mistook members of the MSM as members of the Obama fan club. He has difficulty distinguishing genuine love for him from doing well in a high school popularity contest.

    This is the first real crack in the dam. It’s been breached. There’s no going back to shore it up. Someone uttered what many already though but were afraid to say- Obama is all about Obama. He has no real plans, he has no commitment to issues and would sell us all out to avoid a hard vote. All in all, it’s not too far a leap to imagine him sitting on a ranch in Crawford fiddling while New Orleans flooded. What’s worse is it is not hard to imagine an administration just as shady as the current one- an administration where incompetency rules the day because anyone who has a big enough foam finger, or campaign donation or hosts a nice enough shindig full of celebrities professing their love for him can get a job.

    For all too long the MSM let Obama get away with selling living overseas at the age of 5 as “foreign policy experience.” They let him sell the “hope” tagline with no real specifics. They let him claim the mantle of integrity while knowing he was peddling dirt on his opponents and backstabbing his benefactors. They let him claim he was a champion of the poor and disenfranchised when he made shady land deals, rolled out pork barrel for the rich and powerful. Now that they have him propped up enough, they’ve started dismantling him piece by piece.

    Unfortunately for Obama, he believed his own press and believed they were his friends.

  189. Okie – thats what it boils down to eventually – sycophants. he believed all the hype that the media created around him. and when he went on those book tours, he actually thought he was now ready for president based on the reception he got.

    Dont count him out yet- the media still loves him by and large and he will do anything he can even if is unprincipled, to pursue his ambitions.

  190. MJ did you just see the tagline at Taylor’s site or did you hear it on the broadcast? personally, I think it was just a smartass passing the e-mail. They’re gone. End of story. Plus, it’s not nearly as reprehensible as bussing in students or encouraging voter fraud. Even the guy who rec’d the email has shut down the story.

    You guys see why I say be careful, now?

  191. People pass along ‘ohmigod/gasp’ emails willy-nilly when caught up with all the drama during a campaign. Seems to me that if a campaign decides to send out a mass smear email, they do it in a way that can’t be tracked rather than using a legit, trackable email address. Good lesson to all associated w/ campaigns not to forward crap around.

  192. Celiff,

    I don’t understand what flyer you are talking about.
    Firstly, I have stated before that everything about this is done mostly verbally. The community leader signs people up on his sheet.

    I have told you everything I know.

    + large group of Illinoisans will be in Iowa on Saturday DEc 15th. What’s going on on that day?

    btw: there seems to be, as you guessed it, an anti-hillary memo that people seem to have. Not me, but some people have it memorized as to reasonings and stuff. These are mostly people who are calling in and making calls for Obama and stuff.

  193. Hi Everyone,
    Recently, we have been getting nothing but bad press. Why the hell is that? Anyways, what matters is how we do on the ground. only 30 more days, you guys!!!

  194. This Quinnipiac poll makes Clinton look ‘inevitable’
    by Frank James

    If you want to win the presidential nomination, you must win primaries in some of the states with the largest populations and the greatest number of delegates.

    It just so happens that some of those states are also coveted general-election swing states, states like Florida, Ohio and Pennsylvania.

    And in those swing states, Sen. Hillary Clinton maintains sizeable leads, according to a Quinnipiac University poll out today. Indeed, the conclusion drawn by the polling experts appears to be: Forget about Iowa being close, Clinton’s inevitable, she’s going to be the Democratic nominee.

    She not only does well against the rest of the Democratic field but according to the poll she has improved her position in a head-to-head against Republican field leader Rudy Giuliani in Florida, though when matched against Giuliani in Pennsylvania and Ohio, she is in statistical ties with the former mayor.

    Here’s how the Quinnipiac experts put her standing in the swing states.

    Despite Oprah Winfrey’s support for Illinois Sen. Barack Obama, New York Sen. Hillary Clinton has overwhelming leads, especially among women, in Democratic primaries in three critical swing states, Florida, Ohio and Pennsylvania, according to Quinnipiac University’s Swing State Poll, three simultaneous surveys of voters in states that have been pivotal in presidential elections since 1964.

    How overwhelming is overwhelming? Try margins of anywhere from 28 percentage points to 36 percent among Democrats. That’s fairly daunting.

    “These Democratic primary numbers are a good indication that despite the tight three-way race in Iowa, the fight for the nomination is not very close and that Sen. Clinton’s lead remains very large and deep,” said Peter A. Brown, assistant director of the Quinnipiac University Polling Institute.

    “The Republican primary race remains as muddled as the Democratic side seems clear in these three big states. Mayor Giuliani carries double-digit leads in all three states, but Republicans overall say they are much more likely to change their minds.”

    Meanwhile Rudy Giuliani, the former New York City mayor, leads the Republican field. But while Clinton either has more than half of the Democratic votes or is closing in on half, Giuliani is down around 30 percent of Republican votes. That’s why no one has dared to call Giuliani inevitable.

    A look at the primaries shows:

    Florida: Clinton tops Obama 53 – 17 percent among all Democrats and 56 – 13 percent among women. Former North Carolina Sen. John Edwards gets 7 percent. Giuliani gets 30 percent of Republican votes, with 12 percent for former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney, 11 percent for Huckabee, 10 percent for former Tennessee Sen. Fred Thompson and 9 percent for Arizona Sen. John McCain.

    Ohio: Clinton leads Obama 45 – 19 among Democrats and 53 – 15 percent among women, with 13 percent for Edwards. Giuliani leads McCain 29 – 13 percent, with 10 percent for Huckabee and 7 percent each for Thompson and Romney.

    Pennsylvania: Clinton beats Obama 43 – 15 percent among Democrats, with 47 – 11 percent among women, while Edwards gets 9 percent. Giuliani gets 27 percent of Republicans, with Huckabee and McCain at 13 percent each, and Romney and Thompson at 6 percent each. General election matchups in these swing states show:

  195. Secret, Obama is very open to the press. His campaign regularly sends updates and accepts many interview offers and the like.

    Clinton’s campaign is less open. Thus, the press hates her and fears a clinton presidency where they might be shunned.

  196. I had a feeling a story like that would come out soon, Secret. Those numbers look good. IA is not the whole shebang you guys. There are plenty of folks on the ground in states with more delegates and votes. I know they’re downplaying the results with the “statistical tie” language, but she’s owning those states. Hell, she’s even winning Kentucky. When did that last happen?

  197. Oh, as for bussing stories- look at FDL which gets picked up by other blogs and then by the MSM. Jane Hamsher went off on it. There’s even a link at HuffPo I think. It’s been in the Sioux City papers and the WaPo blog. Commondreams has something up also.

  198. Hillary Clinton Statement on Supreme Court’s Consideration of Military Commissions Act
    Today, the Supreme Court considered deeply troubling implications of the Military Commissions Act of 2007, a law I vigorously opposed when it was debated on the Senate floor. It was as clear then as it is today that this legislation is bad law and bad policy. It does little to advance our security interests abroad, and it undermines our values at home. The specific question before the Court is whether detainees being held in Guantanamo Bay can be denied the right of habeas corpus – the right to challenge the legality of their detention, to ask why they are being held. The Court should restore this basic right. Our Nation must not indefinitely detain anyone without safeguards to ensure we are holding the right person. This is one of the bedrock principles enshrined in our Constitution; it is the way our Founders believed we could be secure against those who would abuse government power.

    I believe we do not have to abandon our constitutional principles or our values as Americans in the name of fighting terrorism. We can defeat terrorists around the world and preserve who we are as Americans. When we sacrifice one for the sake of the other, we hand our enemies a victory. Unfortunately, under President Bush, Guantanamo Bay has come to represent a flagging commitment to justice and contempt for the rule of law. This is not only a threat to our values – it also harms our national security interests and our moral authority in the eyes of the world.

  199. Hi Everyone,

    I have a question. Is it good for Hillary to attack Obama constantly? Shouldn’t she try and speak about what she will do, and get her surrogates to attack him.

    There is a lot of talk that her attacks have backfired or will backfire. I don’t believe MSM anymore. I am just wondering if anyone sees the logic behind their latest move?

  200. Secret: I expected the Post poll would be tighter than the other ones. I am not sure what their screen is, but it does seem to weed out some of the respondents that other polls let in.

    It’s all okay. The only thing I am concerned about is Obama cheating, and I think Hillary is paying close attention on that score.

  201. Secret, Hillary’s not attacking him constantly. Today, she gave a great speech before Wall Street on the subprime crisis.

    Following kostner’s advice, I’ve decided not to fret about the polls. Whatever happens happens. All these polls do is raise expectations for Obama anyway. Not necessarily a bad thing.

    Besides, if you average the two NH polls out today she has a 10-point lead. That seems pretty much in line with other ones recently.

  202. Here is the key finding about New Hampshire from the Post poll, and it is very good news indeed: “Clinton’s lead in New Hampshire inches up in lower-turnout scenarios, suggesting her support is more reliable. Moreover, among those who’ve definitely decided on their candidate, she leads Obama by a wide 43% to 28%; and among the most enthusiastic likely voters she leads him by 45% to 24%. There’s no such difference in Iowa.”

  203. In the WaPo poll more than half of their “definite” Democratic primary voters are either non registered to vote or registered as “undeclared”. In other words, they are claiming that less than half of the voters will be registered Democrats.

    That’s a bunch of bull. The only way that could happen would be if every undeclared voter in the state voted in the Dem primary and not the Rep primary. That’s not happening.

  204. Yep. All indications from the Washington Post over the last year is that they would do pretty much anything to make Clinton look bad.

    Let us not forget that the Washington Post is the epicenter of the Georgetown Social Club and their own Sally Quinn feels slighted that Hillary hasn’t entertained enough since being in the Senate. This is the same newspaper that has run features on cleavage AND cackling.

  205. I am glad that Hillary is getting to take a lap around the field, and her team is getting some experience at dodging incoming. I think it is all to the good when we get to the GE.

  206. You know, DC, she’s going to be so much better prepared for the general because of what she is going through now than the GOP candidate. They’ve largely been ignored so mistakes have been essentially overlooked for each of them.

  207. hwc,

    You’re absolute right. This poll is full of crap. They just manipulate the ‘turnout’ model to make Obama very competitive in NH. Geez.

    MSM’s breast-feeding of this spoiled Hussein is simply amazing.

  208. RA1029 – I don’t know if anyone has already answered this but the Culinary workers union here will not endorse until early January.

    Our caucus is not until Jan 19 but it isn’t going to help anyone in Iowa.

  209. foxnews on speacial reported touted the abc poll while ignoring the marist nh poll. geez, just when the other nite i said they were the fairest operation.

  210. I like that they are jackin up the expectations for Obama. lol. Sometimes, i think that maybe MSM knows Hillary is a shoo-in and is just doing this to a) sell stories and b) have a feeding frenzy when he fails. (note it’s not IF it’s WHEN) lol

  211. former pa senator harris woffard called barack hussein obama jfk,mlk, and rfk i believe in iowa today. i wanna puke. hussien can’t hold thier jockstraps.

  212. I listened to most of Taylor Marsh this afternoon and she interviewed Chase Martyn, who said not to put too much into the county volunteer chair or whatever the title is who emailed out the BO/Muslim story. Martyn said that there is pressure to appoint these county persons and it just so happens that a lot of them don’t get properly vetted. In his opinion he was certain that none of the upper campaign folks had anything to do with the email.

    MSM will play with this for awhile, then it’ll be on to the next story.

  213. And the person’s been let go, right? That’s what needed to be done immediately.

    Interesting internals on the ABC WaPo poll, lol. Why am I not surprised they oversampled nonDems. With McCain doing better in NH, I think many of the independents, etc. will be voting in the Repub primary.

    BTW, any network coverage of Hillary’s speech today?

  214. Paula, your point seems plausible. The more viable McCain looks as a candidate, the more likely that independents in New Hampshire will vote in the Republican primary. And, the David Broder article may be a useful means to that end, if it is anything like what was described to me.

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