Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, John Edwards, Biden, Dodd, Kuch, Gravel New Hampshire Debate

UPDATE:  (from the comments) “When that lowlife Russert mugged her, and it was a mugging and unfair by not mentioning the hypothetical was supposedly from Bill Clinton, Hillary still stood strong. 

Russert did a slimy “gotcha” moment.  The slimiest moment of any debate.  Disgusting.

Hillary still beat Russert – Russert was her real opponent in this debate.”


———————————————————- 

MSNBC Webstream HERE

Debate tonight. Politico has this about the role of the media (and echo of Tucker Carlson and Chris Matthews earlier today):

I know this is incredibly simplistic, and assumes that voters are sort of sexist, but:

Has a male candidate ever benefited from attacking a woman on stage? Ever?

It’s a consideration that has to put a damper on the gunning-for-the-frontrunner scenario that the dynamics of the race suggest, and for which the media is rooting so wholeheartedly.

—————————————————————————

Russert:  As President what would you do on Iraq?

Obama:  I opposed the war.  No more funding.  No military solution.

Russert: Will there be troops after 4 years of your presidency?

Obama: Can’t tell.  Don’t know the situation 4 years from now.

Russert: Senator Clinton you won’t pledge to have all troops out after 4 years of your presidency.

Hillary: I agree with Barack.  We don’t know what will happen in 4 years.  Democrats have tried after 2006 elections to end the war.  I want the troops out but cannot promise.  The Republicans won’t vote with Democrats to end the war.  President is irresponsible to have over 100,000 troops in Iraq.

Russert: Will you agree to have no troops after first 4 years of your presidency?

Edwards:  No, for the same reasons.  We will have an embassy in Iraq that needs protection.  I will pull out 50,000 troops immediately.  We have differences in our position.  Senator Clinton still wants combat troops in Iraq.

Hillary:  Let me clarify, I did say that there has to be a counter-terrorism component and we would need some troops. 

Edwards: I will not have combat operations in Iraq.

Russert: Will you send troops back in if there is genocide?

Edwards:  We need to prepare with the international community for that and I might. 

Russert:  Governor Richardson how can you bring all the troops home in 1 year?

Richardson:  I would end the war.  I disagree with Obama, Edwards, Clinton. 

Russert: How would you do this in 1 year?

Richardson: I would bring them out through Turkey if they let us.  This is also tied to the entire region.

Russert: Senator Dodd where are you on this?

Dodd: Our policy is counterproductive.  We need to redeploy.  Diplomacy.  A brigade a month is not unreasonable.  The congress has the power of the purse.  Terminate the funding. 

Russert: Will you pledge all troops out in 4 years?

Dodd: Yes.

Russert: Biden?

Biden: We need to pass my proposal on federation.  The Biden plan got 75 votes today.  If there is no political solution in 4 years I would pull all the troops out in 4 years. 

Kucinich:  I am the only one here who voted against the war.  I am astonished that Democrats say we cannot get out in 4 years.  I will get them all out in 3 months.  Reconciliation not partition. 

——————————————

Russert: So in 4 years all out?

Kucinich: By April.

Russert: What advice Gravel would you give to Democrats to stop the war.

Gravel: Vote every day to override Bush’s veto.  Get the votes by the scruff of the neck. 

Russert: So you suggest they stop their campaigns and vote every day on the war?

Gravel:  Today they started the Iran war.  I congratulate Biden for voting against the resolution.  Hillary should be ashamed.  Obama was not even there.

Hillary: We voted to designate the Revolutionary Guard as a terrorist organization.  We need to make up for lost time to put pressure on Iran.

Russert:  Dodd, should you do what Gravel suggests?

Dodd: We will be voting again on the war.  We can stop the funding.  Stand up and lead on this war. 

Biden: We got 75 votes and 26 Republican votes and it is not partition.

Russert: Is Israel justified in attacking Iran if it has nuclear weapons?

Hillary: Let’s talk about the Syrian case.  I support that attack.  I cannot answer on the Iran question because we don’t have the secret information on that attack. 

Russert:  Was Israel justified attacking Iran?

Hillary: I am not going to answer that Tim, we don’t have the secret information on that attack. 

Russert:  Will you promise to use any means to stop Iran from becoming a nuclear power?

Hillary:  We need a concerted comprehensive strategy and diplomacy on Iran.

Russert: Senator Obama would you stop Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons.

Obama: We need information before we make that judgment.  We don’t have enough information on the Syrian attack either.  We need to put the squeeze on Iran financially. 

Russert:  So unlike Giuliani you will not promise to prevent Iran from having nuclear weapons.

Obama:  We disagree on personal diplomacy.  We need to talk to our enemies.

Russert: same question?

Edwards:  Ahmahdinejad is unpopular in Iran.  We need to put pressure on him.  There was an important vote on Iran today.  Senator Biden and Dodd voted against the amendment today.  Senator Clinton learned the wrong lesson from the Iraq vote by voting for the Iran vote today.

Russert:  same question to Richardson?

Richardson: Yes.  No nuclear weapons for Iran and Israel is our friend.  I’ve talked to the bad guys already so I have a head start.  Iran is susceptible to economic pressure, they import much of their food and oil.  We need diplomacy and negotiation. 

Russert: But would you support Israel if they attack Iran?

Richardson: Israel is our friend.  We need diplomacy. 

Russert: (viewer question) Communities which provide sanctuary to undocumented immigrants, what would you do? 

Richardson: We need to fix the immigration system.  Security at the border.  Not the wall.  Punish employers.  Talk to Mexico.  Earned legalization.  Increase immigration quotas.  Cities and communities are being victimized.

Biden: Cities and communities need help from the federal government.  Rudy Giuliani does not know what he is talking about.  I would not allow them to violate federal law.

Dodd:  The federal government has to give locals some leeway.  This has been a failure of leadership.  I endorse what Bill said.  We are a nation of immigrants.  We can’t tolerate half a million people to cross the border without control.  We need national leadership. 

Russert:  Anyone who would close down these sanctuary cities?

Kucinich:  The moral law is being violated.

Obama:  I would pass comprehensive immigration reform. 

Clinton: In addition to the points made, local law enforcement cannot handle such a big job.  It would threaten local safety because immigrants would not talk to police because they would fear deportation. 

Gravel:  The whole nation should be a sanctuary. 

BREAK

—————————————–

Russert: Bush predicted Hillary would get the nomination.  Dodd you said that you understood why Bush would want that?

Dodd:  Bush also said “mission accomplished” and “heck of a job, Brownie”. 

Russert: But why did you say what you did?

Dodd:  I know the outcome you want Tim.  I want to talk about my record.

Russert: You failed on healthcare why should you be president?

Clinton: I am proud I tried.  My health care plan provides choice and is something that can pass.  Times have also changed.  I will be the health care president.

Russert:  You refused to compromise 15 years ago on the Chafee plan and failed?

Clinton: I had many conversations with Senator Chafee but republicans wanted to stop the health care plan.

Russert: Biden you said Hillary cannot get 15 republican votes?

Biden: It’s not Hillary’s fault that Republicans don’t like her and can’t get things passed.  There is a lot of old policy stuff from the Clinton years what will hurt her.

Russert: Edwards you said the same thing?

Edwards: Washington thinks that health care will be solved there.  I will get rid of health care for politicians in Washington.

Russert: But you said when you were a Senator that we could not afford health care?

Edwards: Times have changed.  I changed my position.  I will never give up.  We did not get health care, we got NAFTA.

Russert: Obama you have been a senator for 13 months.  You have passed no big bills.  You said running for higher office did not make sense?

Obama:  Things have changed.  I bought people together in the state house.  I passed ethics legislation.  I opposed the war when it could hurt me when I was running for senate.  Hillary and Edwards deserve credit for their health care plans.  Who can inspire people?  Hillary you kept the door close to a lot of people on health care.

Russert: You could not manage your own personal finances when you declared bankruptcy, how can you manage the countries finances. 

Gravel: I used the bankruptcy money for better purposes?

Russert: You were thrown out of office in Cleveland, why would you be a good president?

Kucinich: I would not let the public utilities to be sold in Cleveland, the municipal electric system.  I took a stand. 

Russert: Richardson, security breaches in Los Alamos, New Mexico is 48 in children below the poverty line, you said being gay is a choice?

Richardson: I am not the perfect consultant blow dried candidate.  But I deliver.  I’ve bought back hostages and other accomplishments.  I will make mistakes.  I bring change and experience.  I deliver.  To bring change you need the experience. 

Russert: (viewer question) Gay issues.  Would you be comfortable with a story of 2 princes marrying read to your children in second grade?

Edwards: Yes.  I want my children even in second grade to be exposed to different views.  Get rid of DOMA and DADT.

Obama: My children are already aware that there are same sex couples.  There were times that I was considered different.  Stop fanning people’s fears. 

Hillary: I respect what Obama and Edwards have said.  We oppose discrimination.  With respect to children I think it is best to know about different people but this is a matter that varies with families.  We will vote on the hate crimes bill tomorrow. 

BREAK

——————————–

Russert: If nothing is done would you consider things such as raising the retirement age or tax all income to save Social Security.

Biden: Yes.  I was there when we made a deal to save it with Reagan.  Raise the cap.

Russert: Raise the retirement age?

Biden: You can solve the problem just by raising the cap.

Russert: Clinton?

Hillary: I do think it is important to talk about fiscal responsiblity.  Bill Clinton had Social Security solvent until 2055.  We need the White House to be dedicated to Social Security.  When I am president I will do everything to preserve and protect Social Security.  Fiscal responsibility comes first. 

Russert: So you don’t take this off the table.

Hillary: I take everything off the table until we move to fiscal responsibility.

Russert: But don’t you need to make changes?

Hillary: I take everything off the table until we move to fiscal responsibility.

Obama: I put everything on the table.  Young people don’t think they will get Social Security.  I oppose privatization.

Dodd: Pension security is also important.  Prescription drugs are important too. 

Russert: Richardson?

Richardson: No.  You need fiscal responsibility.  If we balance the budget and invest in education and have a pro growth economy a green economy we can save Social Security. 

Russert: So you are saying it can be done just by growing the economy?

Richardson: I am for a balanced budget amendment.  We can grow our way out.

Edwards:  We need to speak the truth.  We need to make hard choices.  I disagree with Dodd.  Why shouldn’t all income be taxed for Social Security? I would create a protective zone around $100,000 but higher than that we should raise the cap.

Kucinich: Wall Street wants privatization.  Raise the caps and lower the retirement age to 65. 

Dodd: You can do this by readjusting the tax.  But you need to raise the caps.  No one political party can do this. 

Hillary: In the interest of facts:  in the words of Alan Greenspan we were on the way to eliminate debt.  You cannot give away what you need to negotiate.  Democrats need to make the case that we are better at handling the economy. 

Russert: But we need changes?

Hillary: yes.

Russert: Are you in favor of banning smoking in all public places?

Hillary: We did it in New York.  It was resisted but things turned out well.  We need to turn smoking over to the FDA.  But locals are doing well.

Obama: Local communities are doing well but if not then a federal law would be good. 

Russert: Biden, Dodd, Richardson, Gravel Richardson, in favor of a national law.

Russert: (viewer question) Return the drinking age back to the states and lower than 21?

Biden: No.  This is a gigantic problem.  It is counterproductive. 

Dodd: The evidence is overwhelming.  Smoking is related.  The health care issue is also associated with smoking. 

Richardson: No.  We need a dual approach.  Local enforcement and substance abuse treatment.  The federal government has to assist.

Russert: Anyone here think we should lower the drinking age?

Gravel: If you can die for your country you should be able to drink.

Kucinich: Yes and vote at 16.

BREAK

———————–

Russert: Is ‘turn the page’ about the bush administration or the clinton administration?

Obama: the special interest politics.

Russert: Is it healthy for a democracy to have 2 families keep switching the presidency?

Hillary: I think Bill was a good president.  I am running on my record. 

Russert: Has move-on been a positive good?

Biden: I don’t think they are that important.  They are part of the party, not the party.

Russert: Would you be in favor of $3.00 gasoline tax. 

Kucinich: Greenspan also said the Iraq war is about oil. 

Russert: Anyone in favor of that?

Gravel: We need a carbon tax. 

Russert: A temporary ban on all toys from China?

Dodd: Yes.  They are using excessive lead paint. 

Russert: Should you have gone to Jena?

Obama: I was in Washington trying to stop the war in Iraq.  I spoke early on Jena.  This is not a black and white issue.

Russert: As president would you accept being the head of the boy scouts even though they disciminate against gays?

Richardson: No.  I am for habeau corpus and will not evesdrop – I respect the constitution.  We disagree on getting troops out of Iraq.

Obama: You can get troops out 1-2 brigades a month safely only.

Russert: Nuclear power.

Edwards: No

Obama: Don’t take it off the table.  Store it safely.  There is no magic bullet on energy.

Kucinich: I stopped a nuclear dump in Ohio.  It is expensive.  You need to factor in storage costs.  No more resource wars.

Gravel: The solution is wind power.

Hillary: It would not be an option I favor but I would not rule it out.  I voted and spoke out against Yucca mountain.  Lots of difficult questions.  I will look at everything but there are tough questions on nuclear.

Russert: Torture? 

Obama: America cannot sanction torture. 

Biden: I met with 17 four star generals.  They oppose torture.  It does not work. 

Hillary: I agree with Joe and Barack.  It cannot be an American policy.  I too met with those generals.  We need better intelligence and world wide respect.  These hypotheticals are dangerous. 

Russert: the person who made that hypothetical was Bill Clinton

Hillary: Well I am the one standing here. (laughs)

Russert: Who would you listen to?

Hillary: I will listen to all my advisors.

Dodd: this is a dreadful way to get information. 

Richardson: We need to respect human rights. 

Edwards: I agree with what has been said. 

———————-

Biden: (after confusion) No.

Kucinich: After 9/11 there has been a politicising of terror.

Russert: Campaign finance.  Do you believe the Clinton foundation and Clinton library should publish donor lists?

Hillary: I pushed for just this type of legislation.

Russert: Will Bill Clinton do it?

Hillary: I’ll talk to him about it.

Obama: We also need to talk about bundling.  From and too.

Russert: You spoke of candor.  $400 haircuts, hedgefunds, Murdoch money?

Edwards: I am not perfect.  But I was born into nothing.  I am proud of what I have done with my life.  I do not apologize.

Russert: but the hedgefund and New Orleans subprime loans?

Edwards: I worked with ACORN to help those families.  I have made poverty central to my campaign. 

Russert: Faith and values.  Favorite Bible verse?

Obama: Sermon on the mount.  We have lost empathy for others. 

Hillary: The Golden Rule: do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Edwards: what you do to the least of these

Dodd: Good Samaritan

Biden: Christ’s warning on the Pharisees. 

Viewer question: Baseball – Red Sox or Yankees

Richardson: Red Sox

Kucinich: Cleveland Indians

Hillary: Yankees

Russert: what about Yankees vs. Cubs

Hillary: the Apocalypse

Obama: Sox

Dodd: Sox

Biden: Yankees

Over. 

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89 thoughts on “Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, John Edwards, Biden, Dodd, Kuch, Gravel New Hampshire Debate

  1. i doubt many people will watch this. MSNBC does not have lots of audience. I hate Tim Russert. What an egomaniac host.

  2. Good warm color on Hillary, ooh, she just sent a punch Edwards way.

    Obama seemed to stutter more then usual in his first answer, you could almost see his sickness. oh well…. 🙂

  3. Hmmm, it looks like an actual debate, they are engaging.
    This is promising, but Edwards certainly started throwing punches early..

  4. Oh God! Mike Gravel: “I’m ashamed of you Hillary”

    Didn’t look too good with her standing right next to him, this is what I meant earlier today admin with Gravel so close, he fires off.
    The MSM might like this clip….

  5. OOOoohhhh, Hillary standing her ground hammering through her answer, good for her, she came across as knowledgeable and smart, having inside classified information. And here we see obama following her lead.

    It seemed though, but I think Hillary came through that grilling just fine.

  6. Well, Tim Russert is though, but I must say I like how he doesn’t sway off topic, he stays on his questions.
    In this debate it seems this is working against Edwards tactic of going after Hillary, Russert doesn’t follow his attack, so even if Edwards goes back to his attack, it has lost it’s flow.
    Good for our girl that is.

  7. Alright, looking good so far, Russert is breaking a sweat, I’m nearly too, but Hillary I think is doing alright.

    I kinda like this intimate setting, and that the audience mainly remains quiet, we usually see in the debate when the audiences are applauding, that the candidates are affected to bring more applause lines, here we don’t have that.

    And this also effectively wrecks any support for the attacks that Edwards is bringing, that being if they agree with him.
    But his attacks would be caring more effect I believe if the audience applauds.

  8. I wish they would let Hillary respond to some comments. The others make negative statements and she doesn’t get the chance to defend herself. Then again the questions keep changing so frequently I guess it’s just not possible.

  9. Well, this round Obama got to speak, the first segment was pretty much just about Hillary!

    I hope the next segment is good, and more exiting then this second part though.
    Although Tim Russert can be arrogant, I like him so far as a moderator, stays on his questions and has the authority to keep the candidates to them and in line! hehe
    Well, except when he asked Hillary a weird question and she retaliated, haha.

  10. Well, Obama is as boring as I expected, so predictable. Its interesting, Hillary is the most presidential of all these men, what a hoot!

  11. Hillary has been right on target on Social Security. Russert thinks he is an expert on “fiscal responsibility” but he can’t see the forest for the trees.

    Hillary is right and Bill Clinton was right. Put your economic house in order before you commit to do anything.

    It is likely that raising the caps on income that gets taxed for Social Security is a sound idea.

    Russert thinks he is an expert on this but he should listen to Hillary on this.

  12. Taylor Marsh is currently not giving Hillary very good grades, she thinks her argument with Russert early on was bad for her…hmmm.
    And I kind of liked it…
    Goes to show how differently we see th8ings and how open we are for persuasion from others (pundits etc…)

  13. I hope someone in mainstream media understands the maturity of judgment Hillary is showing in refusing to answer Russert hypotheticals, e.g. whether Israel would be justified in launching a future attack, what to do about the social security shortfall after restoring fiscal responsibilty and bi-partisan adjustment of cap. Any candidate who attempts to answer these question now, without specific facts in front is likely to give wrong answers, limit options, and reduce bargaining leverage.

  14. Yes, wbboei, not sure how many will get that, but it was a sophisticated and thoughtful refusing to get pigeonholed with these hypotheticals. And sophisticated and thoughtful is what I want in my president.

  15. HOLY CRAP!!!!!!!!!!

    Tim Russert just stopped my heart, by playing gotcha on Hillary.
    Afterwards saying it was Bill Clintons ‘hypotetical.

    But Hillary got my heart beating again and I believe made a moment of the evening with her reply: “Well hes not here tonight”

    Fantastic!!!!!!!!

  16. Oh man, Hillary is really more than a match for Russert! Just wait and see what she’s going to be able to do with foreign leaders and Republicans. Alliances, collaboration, consensus!

  17. Oh man!!

    Hillary just seized another moment. Tim Russert tried to ambush her, but she was fully prepared. LOL. They’ll play this clip over and over again. That’s great.

  18. Ugh, does anyone think that Obama comes across as kinda self righteous? Reminds of the jr. high school hall monitor, really full of himself.

  19. Russert tries again–this time with the Clinton library donor question–what a jerk! Hillary has done well tonight in not letting him get to her. I agree to Gorto–that exchange was the top one of the evening. Sure shows Hillary doesn’t get rattled easily.

    Overall, why does Russert ask every question as some kind of challenge? He actually makes the debate unpleasant..

  20. Edwards: he grew up in a log cabin, read the Bible by candle light, bought a 28,000 square foot house, got a $400 haircut, and is devoted to eliminating poverty starting with his own. And he polished up the handle on the big front door.

  21. Can someone, or maybe admin does i tin the transcript, fill in the blanks for me.
    At the end when Hillary was answering the red sox or yankees q. the online stream cut off the end…. 🙁
    what happened, just the end there, anything after Hill spoke?

  22. Pat Buchanan says Hillary won the debate. Howard Fineman: Obama, who has a cold, was off his game.

    Buchanan thinks Edwards moved to the left but emerged as the non-Hillary. Obama boring and listless.

  23. Biggest moment of the night was the mugging Russert tried to do on Hillary. Hillary was surprised but then took her purse and hit the mugger on the head and knocked him out (knocked us out too – wow).

  24. admin,

    you’re right. That’s probably the most memorable moment and Clinton again seized it. The rest was sort of boring. She again proved she’s going to call the shot, demonstrating her independence and toughness.

  25. Like I think I’ve said before, Hillary is playing chess, the others are playing checkers or think (like Russert) Hillary is also. Checkmate!

  26. Hey ya’ll, I pretty much had that reaction to Russert trying the gotcha with Hillary over the torture question, but she answered it totally on the money. It seemed to me to be mostly Biden and Dodd who were going after Hillary, oh there was Gravel, too, with “I’m ashamed of you…” blah blah blah what a patronizing jerk! I thought Obama was withdrawn to the point of not being there/the old presence of absence. JE is a little off the wall. Hillary really did need that tin hat tonight–mollyj

  27. Kostner, you thought this was boring earlier on. Changed your mind? 🙂

    This Hillary, wow, up against all the candidates and the moderator and she still manages to keep standing.

    When that lowlife Russert mugged her, and it was a mugging and unfair by not mentioning the hypothetical was supposedly from Bill Clinton, Hillary still stood strong.

    Russert did a slimy “gotcha” moment. The slimiest moment of any debate. Disgusting.

  28. I got lil to no respect for Russert and this kind of gottcha event. It’s no better than tabloid magazines. She handled herself so well, though, but she does it with a sense of humor and that is thoroughly disarming. She’s my girl all right. –mollyj

  29. From Staff:

    It’s clear after the day long rants on MSNBC that Big Media especially as represented by Matthews and his cronys have realized that Hillary’s Democratic opponents cannot bring her down so they have taken it upon themselves to bring her down.

  30. I agree with you completely admin, and your analogy to mugging just hits the nail on its head! That was a thing of beauty, and I’m not kidding about making my heart skip a beat, it sure did! I hope they show this clip a lot, although, is this a clip the Clinton camp should tout around? It was nearly a semi hit at Bill, 🙂

    But it sure was an ugly moment, as Tim was obviously setting Hillary up, even more obvious and disgusting when looking back on it. And the look on his face when he seemed to think he had caught Hillary in between a rock and a hard place! What a thug!!
    I hope people let me know what some ‘experts’ feel about the debate, who won? who lost? Is Hillary doing alright??

  31. Hillary sure showed that she can stand her ground tonight, this was one tough grilling, none of the others came close, I think that alone speaks volumes, Hillary is the one to go for if you want someone who can face the punches standing up and catching them and throwing them back rather effectively. Wow, just wow, I’m gonna go to bed with a smile on my face, and hopefully dream of that zinger!! wow.

  32. I can’t watch the post debate anymore. Chris Matthews is disgusting. I really don’t like Dodd either. He is a pointless presidential candidate. I know Hillary won’t be thrown off of her game, but MSM types like Matthews, Russert, and the nasty blogs will say she flopped, despite the obvious fact that she held up under more pressure than any other person on the stage, on a debate stage ever. The only flop was Obama and his “cold”. UGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Oh, btw, Obama is skipping the Johnson County BBQ on the 6th of October (Johnson County=most liberal county in Iowa and largest college in state) and Hill will be there (:

  33. i thought hillary did well. obama had a horrid night. reallypoorperformance. and edwards really seemed to hit a stride to her”left”. he says hsi iraq plan is different-but if u read i dont see much diff from hillary . msnbc seems to be riping at hillary tonight. calling her testy. “testy”-i have never herd a man called “testy.” she moves on ahead-and if she tops obama thsi quarter he may be done. i have always felt it would be between hillary and edwards.

  34. You can all go here and vote, Obama has dropped so far in fav. 3, and Hill dropped 1.
    But hillarys negative dropped 3 so far, and Obama has dropped 1.

    vote!

    msnbc.msn.com/id/20873667/

  35. Yes, on Obama’s first question. He was scared, nervous and I saw Flop-Sweat!
    Obama came across as his usual stiff self, parroting his stump speech almost verbatim.. Completely lost when asked hard questions obviously struggling for the right words to miraculously fall out of mouth.

    Matthews praising Edwards for defining himself. Matthews insists Edwards is defining himself against Hillary, when in fact he defined himself against Obama by running him off into the ditch in short order. Edwards will overtake Obama after this debate.

    People are so tired of watching Obama choke on just about ever question. His unfamiliarity with facts and issues is fairly obvious to the average everyday voter.

    Tonight’s performance by Obama sealed his fate as the debates biggest Loser.
    He’s out of serious contention…imo.

    (Moving day at the Obama household)

    Edwards, otoh…is moving on up!

    Mrs. S.

    Mrs. S.

  36. Urgent:

    Dailykos is doing another round of smearing Clinton on that Iran vote. Politico has uncovered Obama and Dodd actually co-sponsored such bill early this year designating revolutionary guards as terrorist organization.

    Somebody needs to write a diary on dailykos to uncover these scumbags’ shady history. This is disgusting.

    More on that Iran designation

    Straying from the liveblog for a second here: I’ll have more on this tomorrow, but it’s worth noting that both Dodd and Obama co-sponsored a bill earlier this year that, among several other things, calls on the Secretary of State to designate Iran’s Revolutionary Guards a terrorist group.

  37. well no msnbc tonight. bigmedia is trying totakehillary down over sexist crap. hee hee-russert laughs about his question about disclosing prez library donation and hillary saying that would be her policy but would discuss bill’s policy with bill. yes-hillary is NOT bill. but the fools on msnbc think hillary and bill are one-hillary is part of bill. how sick but unsurprising. how many of these things are left to go?

  38. Didn’t you hear. Poor Obama was sickly. Howard Fineman used that excuse when he said Obama O bomb a’d again.

    We wrote that the Obama campaign would use Obama’s alleged illness as an excuse if he bombed again and we were right – ‘journalist Howard Fineman’ of the Obama campaign was the first to use the excuse.

  39. I think O bomb a acted just like he always does. I really didn’t see that much different, just maybe a little more wooden than usual. There were several questions Russert asked that really were off putting. I didn’t like the bible verse question but do note: Hillary is the only one who got it down to a single verse. Now that’s somethin’ that counts! It is a bunch a sexist crap to some extent. I feel like this debate really was about bruised egos..sorry friends, but that’s what i see. And tryin’ to use one of Bill’s quotes to embarrass Hillary. I hear you Kostner and I read that ammendment today. Do we know when O bomb and Biden put forth their bill? –mollyj

  40. In the post debate interview with Matthews, Russert seemed glum. He looked like someone took the turkey he planned to eat off the table.

    It looked to us like Russert was surprised that Hillary took him on and beat him. He was not happy that she refused to answer his ‘gotcha’ questions.

    That might be the best way to determine the question of “who won the debate?”

  41. Ya’ll they have “the moment” posted on their blog at hillary’s site. What I’d forgotten about it was two things. One, the crowd went wild when she said, “well he’s not standing here now.” Boy she got applause. The other was the look on her face. It was so classic: gotcha back. She was so on point. Then we had Russert’s twist: so you have a disagreement? Hill says, “Well I’ll talk to him later.” Once again, the crowd was with her. Smacked him with her purse? I say she slam dunked him. mollyj

  42. Kostner,

    the Biden and Dodd sponsorship of designating the Revolutionary Guard as a terrorist organization is interesting but ultimately unimportant. It’s a good find and we understand the nutroots are going nuts and nutrooty on this issue.

    However, remember that the absent Obama is now on record as supporting Hillary on this issue. There is no space between Obama and Hillary on this now. Whatever the good/bad of the issue the fact is that politically speaking, without Obama disagreeing with Hillary, the issue is moot.

    Obama is the only one with the money to take Hillary on. Nutroots notwithstanding, this particular argument is over.

    http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0907/Clarifying_Obamas_Iran_stance.html

    “Obama spokesman Bill Burton said Obama supports designating the Revolutionary Guards a terrorist organization.

    He objects, Burton said, to another passage of the resolution, which finds that:

    The manner in which the United States transitions and structures its military presence in Iraq will have critical long term consequences for the future of the Persian Gulf and the Middle East, in particular with regard to the capability of … Iran to pose a threat to the security of the region…”

  43. More from the post debate coverate on MSNBC:

    Matthews says “Hillary wants to win the election without any risk”. However, Pat Buchanan, of all people, says Hillary “showed authority” and agreed she had the right answers for a general election campaign.

  44. Edwards was well rehearsed. He had his spiel down pat and was prepared to go on and on indefinitely. TG for timers. But…Hillary definitely was targeted by Russert, just as I thought he would do.

    The entrapment torture question. I believe when prez Clinton was asked the torture question, I don’t think we had Guantanamo then. I may be mistaken about that. But different times, different policies apply.

    Hillary stood up well under the thrashing doled out by Russert. She stopped him dead and stood her ground out of principle on the Israeli question.. Hugs for that one, Hillary! He tried to bully you and push you into a corner…and you fought off his attack. You were brilliant and made us proud you weren’t going to let Tim’s mouth control the conversation…Thank You very much for digging in and standing tall.

    I didn’t see Edwards as winning anything… just staking out smoothing out his own territory and speaking in a favorable rhythm.

    Dodd should be a statesman or ambassador. He is well spoken and gets his point across easily and quickly. Richardson showed some life tonight.. of course his forte is foreign policy. He likes it and he shines..

    Mrs. S.

  45. The Russert “gotcha” moment of Bill Clinton on NPR is below. Looks like Tim Russert misrepresented the facts:

    http://www.npr.org/about/press/060920.clinton.html

    Washington, D.C.; September 20, 2006 – Former President Bill Clinton, in an interview with Steve Inskeep to air on NPR’s Morning Edition tomorrow morning, outlines his vision for how the U.S. should interrogate terror suspects while discussing the importance of adhering to and honoring the Geneva Conventions. He also discusses President Bush’s current approach to Iran, stressing the importance of engagement.

    Transcribed excerpts of the interview are below. All excerpts must be credited to NPR’s Morning Edition. The interview airs tomorrow morning, Thursday, September 21. Local stations’ air time of the program is available at http://www.npr.org/stations. Audio of the interview will be available at http://www.NPR.org after 10:00am (ET).

    President Clinton on the Geneva Conventions: “And believe me, I’ve never discussed this with anybody before. You and I are having the first conversation I’ve ever had, but I believe on balance we should strictly adhere to the Geneva Conventions, and we should honor it, and when we violate it we should be prepared to be held accountable and ask people what would you have done under those circumstances. … But I think you go around passing laws that legitimize a violation of the Geneva Convention, and institutionalize what happened at Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo, ah we’re going to be in real trouble. It’ll hurt America, it won’t help us in our attempts to, to win the people that we’re trying to win over in these hot spots in the world and it will make our own soldiers far more vulnerable to being abused if they are captured.”

    When asked if it’s sometimes necessary to coerce or torture people in order to protect national security, President Clinton said, “I think as a policy, it’s an error. I think that the Geneva Conventions are there for a reason. I think that number one it’s consistent with our values. Number two, it’s consistent with our interests. There have been repeated examples where a pattern policy of torture produces – sometimes it will get you something that you don’t know that’s worthwhile – but more often than not it just gets people to lie to tell you what you want to hear to keep you from beating the living daylights out of them. And when you do it you run the risk that your own people if captured will be tortured in return.”

    President Clinton added: “I think it’s important to remember that there’s a reason that the entire military apparatus is opposed to torture. They know that it gets you bad information, destroys your country’s legacy, undermines our attempts for example to win the hearts and minds of people in a place like Iraq and makes our own soldiers vulnerable to torture.”

    On whether the President can have the option to make exceptions to the rules, President Clinton said, “Look if the President needed the option there’s all kinds of things they could do, if that’s really what they wanted, if they wanted an option. … If they really believe that that scenario is likely to occur then let them come forward with an alternative proposal, which allows the intelligence services of the country to come to the president for a finding which then could be reviewable even on a post-facto basis by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court. In other words, we have a system of laws here where nobody should be above the law, and you don’t need blanket advance approval.”

    When asked if he approves of President Bush’s approach to Iran and its nuclear program, President Clinton said, “I strongly approve of his outreach to the Iranian people.”

    When asked to clarify if he thinks it’s smart to not talk to Iran, President Clinton said, “No, I didn’t say that. I said it’s smart to say what our conditions for normalized relations would be. …but if you have a country where you could be moving toward a severe economic or other kind of conflict, it seems to me that all other alternatives ought to be exhausted. So I think we should be talking to them in some way or another we should be negotiating in some way or another to see if there are any possibilities. Because I still believe that based on all my Iranian friends in America what they say is that the vast majority of Iranian citizens want to have good relationships with the United States and the West and do not want to be at odds. But they all believe basically that if any other country has a right to nuclear power, they do too, so we have to work through that and I, I hope we can do it in a peaceful way.”

  46. Ah, thanks, admin… for posting the interview.

    So, this was a deliberate sandbagging by Russert!!

    Someone’s going to have to call him on it… tomorrow..

    Isn’t Big Dog on Olberman tomorrow?

    Ruff! Ruff!

    Mrs. S.

  47. kostner:

    thanks for that update on obama/dodd amendment….i will sleep better tonight…..i was somewhat upset today about hillary’s vote and did not know what they were talking about.

  48. Wow. Judging from how he looked like the turkey had been pulled from the table, maybe somebody already had a little chat with ’em. Yes, thanks for postin’ that, Admin. mollyj

  49. Yes, Obama looked listless tonight, Edwards (aka Eddie Haskell) was more assertive, and Hillary was playing for the GE and primary. Russert and Matthew tried to put Hillary in the cross hairs–and failed. Big Russ would not have liked it.

    One pundit suggested Edwards could surpass Obama over time, and in that case would be an easier opponent for Hillary because he lacks the national campaign structure and is too far left. Oh well.

  50. The Reviews Are In: Hillary ‘Won,’ ‘Continues to Show Command,’ ‘Playing At A Higher Level’
    MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST PAT BUCHANAN — ‘HILLARY WON TONIGHT’ [MSNBC, 9/26/07]

    NBC NEWS’ CHUCK TODD — HILLARY ‘CONTINUES TO SHOW COMMAND… IN CHARGE OF THIS CAMPAIGN’: “She continues to show command on the stage; it’s subtle things but there’s no doubting who’s in charge of this campaign right now, it’s Hillary Clinton.” [NBC News First Read, 9/26/07]

    ABC NEWS’ RICK KLEIN — HILLARY WAS AT A ‘HIGHER LEVEL THAN HER RIVALS’: “And, of course, Clinton is again playing at a higher level than her rivals.” [ABC News Political Radar, 9/26/07]

    ATLANTIC’S MARC AMBINDER — ‘THOROUGH AND CAREFUL, CAME OFF AS INTELLIGENT AND PRUDENT’: “Clinton was solid…She was thorough and careful, came off as intelligent and prudent, and really didn’t take a nick tonight. She did unleash the night’s best jab, and she displayed a genuine sense of humor, one that the audience seemed to appreciate and acknowledge.” [Atlantic, 9/26/07]

    NBC NEWS’ DOMENICO MONTARO — HILLARY SOUNDED ‘PRESIDENTIAL’: “Clinton sounded her best tonight… her talking about a president’s role sounded presidential.” [NBC News First Read, 9/26/07]

    ABC NEWS’ JAKE TAPPER — ‘NO ONE HAS REALLY LAID A GLOVE ON CLINTON’ [ABC News Political Radar, 9/26/07]

    AMERICAN PROSPECT’S DANA GOLDSTEIN — ‘HILLARY CLEAREST, MOST CONCISE ON IMMIGRATION’: “Hillary clearest, most concise on Immigration. No, she says local police shouldn’t be made to enforce federal immigration policy: ‘It’s not their job.'” [American Prospect blog, 9/26/07]

    NEW YORK TIMES’ KATHARINE SEELYE — HILLARY ‘CONTROLLED THE QUESTIONING’: “Wow. Quick arms race between Mr. Russert and Mrs. Clinton over what she said was a hypothetical question — whether Israel would be justified in launching an attack against Iran if it felt its security was threatened. She controlled the questioning…” [New York Times Caucus blog, 9/26/07]
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  51. Kostner, the force is with her.

    Admin, I read over the transcript of the WJC interview posted above, and found no mention of the hypothetical cited by Russert. WJC talks about the need to adhere to the Geneva convention in all cases and the policy reasons for doing so. There is a paragraph which talks about exceptions, which contains three dots (…) and the next sentence talks about a scenario. It it possible that he talked about it there? If not, then as you say, there appears to be a misrepresentation by Russert, and given the circumstances I would have to say a material one.

  52. Bill Clinton is scheduled for two of the Sunday talk shows this week. I hope Meet the Press with Russert is one of them…might have to TIVO that.

  53. hwc, 42 is going to be on Meet the Press.

    wbboei, we read it too and if this is what Russert is relying on for documentation then he misrepresented 42’s position.

  54. Admin., I vaguely recall a public policy symposium several years ago where a hypothetical like this one was debated. The forum was probably the Kennedy School of Government, the moderator was someone like Arthur Miller (but not him), there were senior government officials present, and WJC may or may not have been one of them. The only substantive thing I recall was Alan Dershowitz proclaiming the need for torture warrants, and everyone else opposed to it for the reasons that Hillary so eloquently stated.

  55. Hillary was solid and poised all night tonight. Meanwhile, Obama wasn’t big enough for the stage. From Politico:

    “Meanwhile Clinton’s other leading rival, Obama, seemed almost to vanish for much of the late-evening debate. He ignored the advice of pundits to confront Clinton, delivering just one careful criticism of her having run an overly closed health care reform process in 1993.

    Aides, when asked, said the candidate had a cold.”

  56. The state department official who blew the whistle on the Bush torture policy dealt with this hypothetical.

    He said that, in that hypothetical, he would use torture. But, he would want it to be illegal so that he would only use it knowing that he would go to jail for it. That way, he could make still make a decision that torture was warranted by specific facts, but the bar for that decision would be would be very high.

    As a practical matter, we’ve gotten nothing of any value from the terrorists we have tortured the hell out of. They just tell us anything we want to hear and most of it is just nonsense. Officially sanctioning torture as a matter of policy is a horrible mistake.

  57. One of the reasons I loved ‘The Moment’ as hillaryhub promptly named it.
    Was because I bet you there were a lot of women/wifes out there watching her comeback reply, and thinking they’ve done that same thing….*how do I phrase it to come across as I mean*, put their man in place.
    You can almost see that hand, waving in the air with an attitude as she says it, hehe, I’m not sure how I can explain it, just trying to say that I think women could relate that Hillary moment with something similar they’ve done/said in their lives with regards to ‘their man’. 🙂

    Anyways, I’ve SOO downloaded that clip, this is one to keep! 🙂

  58. BV, we wrote earlier in the evening about the likelihood that when Obama bombed yet again his campaign would employ the schoolboy excuse of ‘I didn’t feel so good teacher’. In this the Obama campaign did not disappoint – their new strategy is preemptive excuses. What will the excuse for the next debate be? I overslept?

  59. Admin I love that clip of Bill, I only wish Hillary had been the one going so forcefully out against the republicans, the Dems had an excellent case.
    They could have easily ignored ‘the ad’ and rather gone right after the repugs for wanting to play politics.

    Bill very effectively, and forcefully here went after the republicans hypocrisy on this issue. She could have strongly showed shes a leader by going after them. It would have been hard for the other dems to not follow her, even tho she is an opponent in this race.

  60. Gorto, think of going to one of those old steakhouse type restaurants where the man at the table gets the check and is given the wine cork to sniff to approve the bottle of wine even if he is at the table as the assistant to the woman boss. The reaction from the woman boss is the same as Hillary had tonight. A single mother asked where the husband is by car salesmen also has the same reaction as Hillary did tonight. Woman at garages and belittled by mechanics asking where the man is felt what Hillary must have felt.

    The women in Russert’s life need to have a long talk with Russert after waterboarding him and applying all other sorts of appropriate tortures – none of it state sponsored or legal.

  61. hmm, you just read my mind/feelings better than I did!! 🙂
    Thank you very much for so effectively describing exactly what I failed but had hoped to do.

    It’s so true as you describe it, and I believe many women will resonate with Hillary and her response.

    Tim and the media in general hold Hillary to a different standard, by trying to link Hill and Bill in every way, not really trying to separate them even on policy opinions. I think her initial look says this, when Tim said it was said by William Jefferson Clinton, her eyebrows went up, as in a: “So?, what’s it got to do with me?” kind of a way… But of course I loved her response coming after that! 🙂

  62. Sparks are going to fly this week! The Big Dog is on a tear! (can hardly blame him for that!)

    Timmy, all I can say to you is: “You’re ASS is GRASS”!

    Mrs. S.

  63. I too loved that great comeback from Hillary – slap down Russert. What a creep this guy is. Both Mathews and Russert showed their sexist stripes last night. Russert was sweating after the debate – what a putz. I thought Dodd and Biden were most aggressive against Clinton. If Dodd says “here” one more time at the end of his statement I am going to gag. Biden for the first time went after Hillary several times. And I agree – Obama was barely present, and he copies what Hillary says all the time. Hillary was dead on on the Social Security debate…it IS about our government’s fiscal health. Russert has bought into the GOP meme, as is some other candidate, on trying to take the teeth out of the social security program. The governement needs to do whatever possible to support this program – if it were a priority it would be just fine and solvent. The GOP has always wanted to kill it.

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